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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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49
JamieCannister · 15/09/2025 18:00

borntobequiet · 15/09/2025 17:48

Anyone extreme enough to think it’s a good idea to assassinate someone they profoundly disagree with is going to do it anyway, whatever their beliefs, which might be left, right or just weird. Any political or faith system is capable of producing murderers and martyrs. It’s probably irrelevant which system it actually is, except in providing a form of words for the slogans.

An ideology which claims to be morally superior to every other, and which actively believes in using violence to defend itself (including against words, which can themselves be violence) is highly likely to be more violent than any other ideology.

lcakethereforeIam · 15/09/2025 18:01

It wouldn't surprise me if there are individuals who get their jollies pushing the buttons of mentally vulnerable individuals to do all sorts of mad stuff. There was a bloke who encouraged people into suicide, the eunuch bloke, many young people seem to have been bamboozled into transitioning. Mayhem and murder, I can see that being something some on-line nihilist would definitely encourage. Just getting off on the chaos and the control.

OneAmberFinch · 15/09/2025 18:05

Namitynamename · 15/09/2025 17:39

I think condemning the behaviour of an individual within a group is the opposite of demonising the whole group.
I also think that vulnerable teenagers/neuro diverse adults falling into online rabbit holes where they end up being convinced the world hates them/that there is some huge existential threat they need to defeat is part of the trans issue but it's also much wider than the trans issue. Some of them seem to have gone on a path where the were very right wing at one point, the left wing, then trans, then very right wing again. But always persecuted. Always more aware of the dangers of the world than "normies". The fact that this was being encouraged by adults rather than addressed is really unhealthy but I don't think it's only trans ideology that can do this.

Agree it's not only trans ideology - and definitely it's really hard to pin down different ideologies in the online world because they are all based on niche subcultures with seemingly odd combinations of beliefs etc

But I do think because trans is a protected characteristic / vulnerable group etc etc, it makes it that much harder for friends/parents/teachers to raise concerns. We discussed this in another thread - avoiding the Prevent pathway by going down the trans psych pathway.

Tinytimmy123 · 15/09/2025 18:05

Mumsnet seems to have been taken over by hard right Americans obsessed by trans.

Merrymouse · 15/09/2025 18:05

TempestTost · 15/09/2025 17:48

That's what EDI is though, and that is it's link to the left.

Classical Marxists, who use the language of Marxism and really believe it's all about class, are matrialts with regard to that, etc, are something of a rarity these days, there is the odd one in academia.

But the activist marxists, people in unions, and most of the marxist parties outside the UK are all now treating class as referring to things other than materialist economics. The groups are build around race or sexuality or any other thing like that, many of them hard to pin down, or in some cases, like sex, they don't fit well into traditional Marxist ideas about abolishing class.

This is the form their arguments take around things like surrogacy, for example. Yes, it will benefit individuals as do all benefits for groups. But the argument for it is based on the idea that surrogacy is the only way to create equity for the class of homosexual men. The argument for race quotas in training courses are about promoting equity between the groups that have been identified as important - "equity seeking groups."

Of course it quickly becomes a thing to become a member of a group like this, or to define new groups, in ways that benefit people who want advantage of some kind. So it creates a push to define all kinds of new inequalities.

Classical Marxists, who use the language of Marxism and really believe it's all about class, are matrialts with regard to that, etc, are something of a rarity these days, there is the odd one in academia.

Maybe it depends on definitions, but I think if you aren't basing your philosophy in material analysis, you aren't left wing.

The groups are build around race or sexuality or any other thing like that, many of them hard to pin down, or in some cases, like sex, they don't fit well into traditional Marxist ideas about abolishing class.

But they aren't analysing anything. It's a top down approach where charity is doled out to people who don't pose a threat. It's 'noblesse oblige'. We have seen it all before.

This is the form their arguments take around things like surrogacy, for example. Yes, it will benefit individuals as do all benefits for groups. But the argument for it is based on the idea that surrogacy is the only way to create equity for the class of homosexual men..

If surrogacy is to benefit men, you can't put a piece of paper between that and any other man who exploits women's reproductive labour. The only difference is the introduction of technology into the process.

If 'right wing' and 'left wing' have any meaning, it has to be about more than adopting a random set of prescribed views.

Namitynamename · 15/09/2025 18:06

OneAmberFinch · 15/09/2025 17:58

I do agree with this, that it's relatively few people - and also, that some of the people who hear the messages and take violent action were vulnerable and taken advantage of.

However let's say there are 10,000 TRAs in Britain and 10 of them are angry enough to show up to a GC or GC-adjacent event. 0.1% so not worth worrying about right? (I made up these numbers)

Your security arrangements depend a lot on whether you think the worst those 10 people will do is stand outside with some signs, or whether you think they're capable of murder.

Oh I know. You could make the same argument about most men not being perverts/dangerous so why not share your changing rooms with them.. or why have police officers at all when most people don't want to commit murders or steal things.
Plus, the 10 that are angry enough to show up to an event are also more likely to be among the small percentage that actually want to do harm. The point is really that even if only a tiny minority of a group are acting like twats they can still do a lot of harm. They were allowed to do a lot of harm IMO by some quite unusual policing.

TheKeatingFive · 15/09/2025 18:12

I have no issues with what people want to wear, call themselves, their hobbies.

However we keep women's spaces single sex space for good reasons (safeguarding, women's dignity, etc).

Why would we make an exception for one group of men? What would be the justification?

Namitynamename · 15/09/2025 18:13

OneAmberFinch · 15/09/2025 18:05

Agree it's not only trans ideology - and definitely it's really hard to pin down different ideologies in the online world because they are all based on niche subcultures with seemingly odd combinations of beliefs etc

But I do think because trans is a protected characteristic / vulnerable group etc etc, it makes it that much harder for friends/parents/teachers to raise concerns. We discussed this in another thread - avoiding the Prevent pathway by going down the trans psych pathway.

Yeah that's what I was getting at when I said about adults encouraging it. Especially the fearfulness of trans genocide. There is a kernel of truth there in that there is a rise in homophobic rhetoric in America right now. But it gets twisted out of all proportion into something terrifying for children. And it's responsible adults jobs to address that not join in. Some of it's also neuro diversity I think. It's very:
"Violence is coming for you. Fight back or be destroyed"
But from a different ideological perspective.

JamieCannister · 15/09/2025 18:14

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TempestTost · 15/09/2025 18:15

TheUnusuallyQuerulentMxLauraBrown · 15/09/2025 17:27

It’s certainly not the L! Except of course that the AGP Trantifa types identify as lesbians.

It’s TQ terrorism really but the TQ have thoroughly glommed onto the LGB despite the efforts of sensible LGB people to push back against it.

That ex undercover chap did at least point out that it’s not necessarily the cause that concerns law enforcement agencies, but the tactics used and crimes committed supposedly in the name of that cause.

I am not sure it's this clear cut.

While I don't think there are any number of assassin lesbians out there, I do thing there is a contingent of people who see themselves often as part of the larger "queer" community, who are pushing all of this stuff, and it does include lesbians and gay men, particularly younger ones.

This is why we have lesbians being kicked out of groups, whether in person or online, for resisting GI.

We've also all seen how organisations representing LGB individuals have been captured, Pride, etc. Not all have been happy with this, some have left, but we know plenty who still support these organisations.

So why wouldn't the general public see this as a LGBT movement? Granted that some moderates don't agree, that is still what it will look like.

JamieCannister · 15/09/2025 18:17

Classical Marxists, who use the language of Marxism and really believe it's all about class, are matrialts with regard to that, etc, are something of a rarity these days, there is the odd one in academia.
Maybe it depends on definitions, but I think if you aren't basing your philosophy in material analysis, you aren't left wing.

What do you mean by material analysis?

Do you agree with my view that Left Right is mainly about economics, whereas conservative-progressive, liberal-authoritarian are mainly separate from left right?

Merrymouse · 15/09/2025 18:18

SionnachRuadh · 15/09/2025 17:55

Going into online trans spaces can be quite disturbing because of the number of people talking openly about their very poor mental health and also the cartoonishly violent language. Even the Trans UK subreddit is like that. The American ones are much worse, and they're in a country with much easier access to guns.

If the Trans UK subreddit portrays JKR as some kind of cross between Cruella De Vil and Skeletor, you don't have to imagine how Charlie Kirk was portrayed on the American equivalents.

If there's a community with this combination of poor mental health, who have marinated for years in violent rhetoric, whose misbehaviour has been indulged far beyond what's reasonable... well most of the people in that community might be young and vulnerable, but it's not too much of a stretch to see the danger of them producing some Son of Sam types.

And again, this is Utah, a state dominated by a religion that really does exclude gay people from participation in the community in a tangible way in real life - but he chose to assassinate somebody who I am assuming had an outsized presence in his online/virtual communities.

(Or his motivation could be something completely different. We don't have much information, and as I have said, my understanding is hampered by my lack of knowledge of so many parts of US culture).

JamieCannister · 15/09/2025 18:18

TheKeatingFive · 15/09/2025 18:12

I have no issues with what people want to wear, call themselves, their hobbies.

However we keep women's spaces single sex space for good reasons (safeguarding, women's dignity, etc).

Why would we make an exception for one group of men? What would be the justification?

Because they asked nicely?

[Sorry, dreadful joke]

Merrymouse · 15/09/2025 18:21

JamieCannister · 15/09/2025 18:17

Classical Marxists, who use the language of Marxism and really believe it's all about class, are matrialts with regard to that, etc, are something of a rarity these days, there is the odd one in academia.
Maybe it depends on definitions, but I think if you aren't basing your philosophy in material analysis, you aren't left wing.

What do you mean by material analysis?

Do you agree with my view that Left Right is mainly about economics, whereas conservative-progressive, liberal-authoritarian are mainly separate from left right?

I'm probably being too simplistic, but in my view

Material analysis = based in reality.

Yes, I agree that left/right = economics.

I think conservative/progressive is often in the eye of the beholder. I don't see anything progressive about attacking women's rights, and I think many omnicause positions like re: Israel/Palestine seem quite random.

Liberal/authoritarian also means different things to different people.

Anactor · 15/09/2025 18:22

Tinytimmy123 · 15/09/2025 18:05

Mumsnet seems to have been taken over by hard right Americans obsessed by trans.

We’re actually alien invaders. We’re ’obsessed’ by trans because all the hormone trans people take allow them to see our true forms.

TempestTost · 15/09/2025 18:26

Merrymouse · 15/09/2025 18:05

Classical Marxists, who use the language of Marxism and really believe it's all about class, are matrialts with regard to that, etc, are something of a rarity these days, there is the odd one in academia.

Maybe it depends on definitions, but I think if you aren't basing your philosophy in material analysis, you aren't left wing.

The groups are build around race or sexuality or any other thing like that, many of them hard to pin down, or in some cases, like sex, they don't fit well into traditional Marxist ideas about abolishing class.

But they aren't analysing anything. It's a top down approach where charity is doled out to people who don't pose a threat. It's 'noblesse oblige'. We have seen it all before.

This is the form their arguments take around things like surrogacy, for example. Yes, it will benefit individuals as do all benefits for groups. But the argument for it is based on the idea that surrogacy is the only way to create equity for the class of homosexual men..

If surrogacy is to benefit men, you can't put a piece of paper between that and any other man who exploits women's reproductive labour. The only difference is the introduction of technology into the process.

If 'right wing' and 'left wing' have any meaning, it has to be about more than adopting a random set of prescribed views.

I'm not sure I understand why you think left wing implies materialism?

TheKeatingFive · 15/09/2025 18:28

TempestTost · 15/09/2025 18:26

I'm not sure I understand why you think left wing implies materialism?

In terms of material reality. Marxism, I understand, is very focused on the real, material reality that you cannot escape from - women's bodies being a prime example.

Its a massive contradiction in leftist TRA adoption.

TempestTost · 15/09/2025 18:38

JamieCannister · 15/09/2025 18:17

Classical Marxists, who use the language of Marxism and really believe it's all about class, are matrialts with regard to that, etc, are something of a rarity these days, there is the odd one in academia.
Maybe it depends on definitions, but I think if you aren't basing your philosophy in material analysis, you aren't left wing.

What do you mean by material analysis?

Do you agree with my view that Left Right is mainly about economics, whereas conservative-progressive, liberal-authoritarian are mainly separate from left right?

By material analysis I mean looking at the physical, real, conditions of human society. Class, for example, should be defined very concretely, by actual role and activity within the economic structures.

(That being said, I am not sure that Marxism really sticks to this terribly well despite it being an ideal, as we see with its tendency to utopianism and progressivism.)

What is meant by left and right has changed since those terms appeared, more than once. I am not sure it's possible to stop allowing them to do so unless we want our discussion to be so divorced from common usage as to be obscure to most.

Most of the time, now, I think "left" refers mainly to ideas and ideologies that owe their way of thinking, to at least some degree, to Marxism. I would also say however there are different movements and schools of thought within that, much as you have different religious sects, or different wings of philosophical perspectives.

I'm not sure that within Marxism you can really separate economics from social life, and that may be the origin of some of what we see now.

TempestTost · 15/09/2025 18:50

TheKeatingFive · 15/09/2025 18:28

In terms of material reality. Marxism, I understand, is very focused on the real, material reality that you cannot escape from - women's bodies being a prime example.

Its a massive contradiction in leftist TRA adoption.

That's a case where the marxist approach fits very poorly outside of economics. Where the way to reconcile class differences is abolishing class. We all, notionally, become the proletariat, and so we have achieved a new synthesis through the historical processes marxism believes in (quite irrationally from a materialist POV.)

How do you do that with sex? I think this is why some feminists felt the need to invent gender, which then could be abolished, and saw tech to control female biological processes as so foundational, as they too could then be abolished, and men and women could be functionally the same. it was an attempt to see the problem of sex classes from within a type of analysis almost wholly unsuited to it.

JamieCannister · 15/09/2025 18:55

Merrymouse · 15/09/2025 18:21

I'm probably being too simplistic, but in my view

Material analysis = based in reality.

Yes, I agree that left/right = economics.

I think conservative/progressive is often in the eye of the beholder. I don't see anything progressive about attacking women's rights, and I think many omnicause positions like re: Israel/Palestine seem quite random.

Liberal/authoritarian also means different things to different people.

Horsehoe theory again... Ultra conservative / repressive > conservative > progressive > regressive woke and we are back to the start.

Liberal/authoritarian - I mean liberal as in the opposite of authoritarian. Woke is very authoritarian, anti free speech etc.

JamieCannister · 15/09/2025 18:56

"I'm not sure that within Marxism you can really separate economics from social life, and that may be the origin of some of what we see now."

Can you expand on that briefly?

borntobequiet · 15/09/2025 19:06

JamieCannister · 15/09/2025 18:00

An ideology which claims to be morally superior to every other, and which actively believes in using violence to defend itself (including against words, which can themselves be violence) is highly likely to be more violent than any other ideology.

Most ideologies/religions embrace violence in one form or another at some point, though some more overtly than others, and they all claim to be morally superior to one another. It’s not that long since Catholics and Protestants were burning each other alive in this country.
Wishing death by fire on those who don’t subscribe to one’s own beliefs does seem to appeal to the genderists more than others, though. I wonder why? Maybe just sheer nastiness.

Merrymouse · 15/09/2025 19:10

JamieCannister · 15/09/2025 18:55

Horsehoe theory again... Ultra conservative / repressive > conservative > progressive > regressive woke and we are back to the start.

Liberal/authoritarian - I mean liberal as in the opposite of authoritarian. Woke is very authoritarian, anti free speech etc.

If liberal means more individual choice that can mean, fewer rules around abortion, but also fewer rules around gun controls. I think American seems much more idealistic when it comes to both these issues and both sides root their arguments in individual freedom, whereas the UK is far more pragmatic.

If authoritarian means ensuring people stick to a prescribed set of behaviours and beliefs, that can mean, as you say, 'being woke', or complying with the rules of a religion.

ArabellaSaurus · 15/09/2025 19:20

Anactor · 15/09/2025 18:22

We’re actually alien invaders. We’re ’obsessed’ by trans because all the hormone trans people take allow them to see our true forms.

Don't tell 'em, Pike!

ArabellaSaurus · 15/09/2025 19:26

I thought the main difference between left and right was a large or a small state? The former aims to help everyone, but also requires/forces everyone to be more interdependent. The latter allows people more freedom, but offers less assistance.

That can be larger than economics. Freedom and individuality v equity and community.

Globalism and neoliberalism have pushed the right to be more socially engaged, and the left to be more growth driven.

My rough understanding, anyway.