Charlie Kirk shot during a debate about trans people

[feministmom4ever]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15086277/Charlie-Kirks-final-words-assassinated-Utah-dead.html

I didn’t agree with many of his political views, but I liked how he interacted with college students who couldn’t answer the question “what is a woman?”.

JK Rowling
If you believe free speech is for you but not your political opponents, you're illiberal.

If no contrary evidence could change your beliefs, you're a fundamentalist.

If you believe the state should punish those with contrary views, you're a totalitarian.

If you believe political opponents should be punished with violence or death, you're a terrorist.

The Undercurrent
The scary part is how many people read what you just wrote and immediately thought, “yes, but my side is the exception.”

JK Rowling
Every fundamentalist, every totalitarian, every terrorist who ever lived believed that they were the exception, that their belief set was so uniquely righteous that everything, right up to murder, was justified.

Someone else also shared this:

You said you would rather live with left wing extremism than right, the other countries are an example of left wing extremism, the USA wouldn't do it any different that the other's if they were left wing extreme.

That's a very Eurocentric view.

Racism Is Alive and Well in China – The Diplomat

The article might be a few years old but not much has changed since, racism is not just something white people do.

Someone on Reddit put it thusly:

He was at a college event, downplaying gun violence in US schools whilst sitting in a tent under a banner which read ‘PROVE ME WRONG’.

🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

Which America would you rather live in? The extreme right or the extreme left?

Those are my words. The whole context of the post you were responding to, as well as my previous post in the quoted thread- is the political climate in the USA.

But if we’re choosing between extreme left or right worldwide and historically (I,e, fascism or communism), I’d still take my chances on extreme communism/ socialism over extreme fascism. I don’t think black women fared too well in Hitler’s Germany, Mussolini's Italy, or apartheid South Africa.

Besides, of the countries you’ve listed as examples of left extremism, Russia is a right wing authoritarian state, whilst China can’t be neatly described as extreme left; state-controlled capitalism would be more apt.

If I see a Black pilot, I’m going to be like, boy, I hope he’s qualified.
– The Charlie Kirk Show, 23 January 2024

If you’re a WNBA, pot-smoking, Black lesbian, do you get treated better than a United States marine?
– The Charlie Kirk Show, 8 December 2022

Happening all the time in urban America, prowling Blacks go around for fun to go target white people, that’s a fact. It’s happening more and more.
– The Charlie Kirk Show, 19 May 2023

If I’m dealing with somebody in customer service who’s a moronic Black woman, I wonder is she there because of her excellence, or is she there because affirmative action?
– The Charlie Kirk Show, 3 January 2024

He also said that Martin Luther King Jr was not a good person, and that The Civil Rights Act of 1964 outlawing discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin was a mistake.

Be reasonable. Noone chooses to live in a totalitarian state. Left wing totalitarianism is not "better" than right wing totalitarianism or indeed whatever the fuck the Chinese model is presenting as these days.

👏

China is not extreme left, nor is anyone claiming that racism doesn’t exist in China. China is better described as a state-controlled Capitalist society. The state interference is derived from the Marxist influences, but the capitalist nature of China’s government policy is very right wing.

Racism exists everywhere regardless of background or political leanings. However, racial oppression as a basis of societal hierarchy, structure and government systems is a hallmark of right wing extremism (Nazism, apartheid, segregation, Indian caste system to name a few examples).

Historically, there aren’t comparable polices or racial structures associated with extreme left wing ideologies such as communism - as they would contradict the whole concept of equality and abolishment of class hierarchies that such ideologies are built on.

Re: right-wing ideologies and racism.

I would say most cultures around the world are explicitly not race/culture-blind. As in, they might or might not explicitly acknowledge a racial (country, ethnic, cultural, tribal...) hierarchy but it is common to see it as a very salient feature. Something like how it has been common here to have stereotypes about Frenchmen vs Germans, including freely saying both positive/negative stereotypes. They will mention the race, make predictions based on it, attribute behaviours to it etc.

They'll also openly prefer their own culture because it is their own, i.e. not making a claim that it's objectively better, but out of loyalty (in-group preference). This feels uncomfortable/weird to a western audience, but this is how the vast majority of the world operates and how we did until the last century. Arguably it's also more closely tied to our instinctive nature - e.g. I care more about my baby than your baby, and more about your baby than one on the other side of the world.

I think it's true that right wing ideologies in general are more comfortable with using (flawed, realistic, biological, mixed-up) human nature as a starting point rather than the left-wing approach of starting with a philosophical ideal (of, say, equality) and imposing it. This includes acknowledging our instinctive in-group preference (and that other groups also have it).

I think there is an aspect of Chinese culture related to rational, unsentimental, pragmatic analysis / careful, penetrating observation of other groups ("know yourself and your enemy") which can lead to people bluntly making very direct statements that here would be seen as very racist. I could be convinced that this cultural aspect is right-wing based on my definition above.

I don't think "Chinese racists are racist because of the right-wing influence of capitalism" really flies though. The capitalism doesn't make them racist. Capitalism is a liberal ideology which tends to see humans as fungible economic units.

Buck Angel posted a video about her first hand interactions with Charlie Kirk:

Sad to hear that Kirk defended a minor-targeting sex offender as a 'nice person who did something wrong over a decade ago'.

I do see his point about repentance & rehabilitation, maybe I'm being too harsh.

https://www.losangelesblade.com/2023/05/28/charlie-kirks-turning-point-partners-with-registered-sex-offender/

LOOK WHAT FLAG THEY HAD

'Ms Petersen, who is studying psychology, told The Telegraph that before the Turning Point USA event started there had been “a lot of back and forth” between a group of “strong, Left-leaning Democrats” and members of the audience.

“When he was shot, there were cheers from the balcony [behind Kirk],” she said. “It was horrific to be a part of. There was just no human empathy.” '

I’m fascinated, but not surprised, that so-called feminists could defend Charlie Kirk’s ideology and persona and be so quick to take up the call “Bet it was a trans that did it!” That really sums up the direction this board has taken in the last few years, and it is sour. Kirk, among other things, advocated for a 1950s type America (and possibly world) where men rule the family, women don’t work or vote and abortions are illegal. How can feminists support such a person or people like him?

I’m not surprised at all that critics of this forum would take the idea that believing someone should not be murdered for his political beliefs and ideas somehow means agreeing with his political beliefs and ideas. It’s a regular theme of threads to try and paint people who believe in biological reality as being “in bed with [insert current devil incarnate]. How trite🙄

What regular posters here recognise is this tragic event is the worst possible outcome of what we see here all the time: aggressive attempts to silence thoughts, ideas, beliefs that people hate. Already gender critical people have been targeted to be “next”. So if you ask:

How can feminists support such a person or people like him?

it’s quite simple: we don’t have to like him personally or like his ideas to support him not being brutally murdered, something that now can’t be undone.

You say you don’t support him or like his ideas @VoulezVouz but presumably you also support the idea he shouldn’t have been murdered?

You want to talk about his awful opinions, but you don't seem to have made any attempt to look past a little clipped quote to understand what he was actually saying. This is a classic way to create straw man arguments or twist meaning.

It's the exact sort of thing that comes out when people have real discussions, arguments, and debates.

It's why so many of the young people CK spoke to at universities didn't fare well in their discussions. They made a judgement based on some quote or phrase, without any context, and seemingly not even understanding why that would be important.

In your example, he was talking about how many on the left in the US think that standards for work and school should be based on racial status, with those in some given advantages, and others penalised. In a industry where that happens, you would not be able to know if members of the favoured groups had the same level of qualification as others.

It's not actually an argument that says that black people aren't as capable of being pilots as anyone else. In fact, you could argue that is true of the people who think you should reduce the requirements for black candidates - they obviously don't think they can get black pilots with the normal standard.

It's a very debatable position. He's used a kind of rhetorical technique to make his point stand out, and be a little edgy, but it doesn't tell us much about what he thinks of the inherent abilities of any race.

Similarly the earlier point about George Floyd - saying he's a scumbag might seem to speak ill of the dead, but if any other guy was described on FWR behaving like he did, he would get worse terms than scumbag used about him.

Why would people believe your other points when you haven't bothered to engage with these ones enough to understand them?

This.
But somehow if you call it out it means you support his murder. Scratching my head at this one!
On the subject of extreme left wing being as bad as right, as a woman with brown skin I'm far safer in a left wing space than I am in a right wing one.

Anyway this is male-on-male violence. It's somewhat expected.

If you’ve read the thread and this is your take on it then frankly I’d question your reading comprehension skills.

Or did you just want to scold us for not celebrating the death of a man who had views many of us disagreed with but we respected his right to hold them and absolutely did not want him to lose his life over?

As for the trans issue, multiple news outlets are reporting that there could be a trans rights motive.

Sorry, I've not finished reading the whole thread, so my apologies if this has already been shared.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/09/11/oxford-union-president-george-abaraonye-charlie-kirk-murder/

The Oxford Union’s incoming president appeared to celebrate the shooting of Charlie Kirk, the Maga influencer, just months after debating him.

George Abaraonye shared comments after Kirk, the free-speech advocate and key Donald Trump ally, was fatally shot at Utah Valley University as he discussed mass shootings committed by trans people.

In messages seen by The Telegraph, Mr Abaraonye posted: “Charlie Kirk got shot, let’s f-- go” – a common celebratory phrase among Gen Z.

Another message, believed to be on the student’s Instagram account, stated “Charlie Kirk got shot loool”, an exaggeration of the abbreviation “laughing out loud”.

Messages were shared in a WhatsApp group for Oxford Union members. At least one of his messages was soon deleted.

Historically, there aren’t comparable polices or racial structures associated with extreme left wing ideologies such as communism - as they would contradict the whole concept of equality and abolishment of class hierarchies that such ideologies are built on.

Pity nobody told Stalin and his mates that.

I think most people on this board are of the view “I may not like what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it”. I mean I see a lot of views I don’t agree with, but my choice is to either engage, put my views across and debate, or ignore and move on. No one should be killed because they have views others may not agree with. That way lies anarchy.

Charlie Kirk was an asshole. We don't shoot assholes or celebrate extra judicial killings.

HTH.

Where has anyone said that?

The very last conversation that Kirk had was on the subject of trans shooters, and then he was shot so unfortunately it's going to be something that's talked about.

Add to this reports in mainstream media which may be accurate or complete bollocks and pro-trans markings on a case that was found with what is thought to be the murder weapon. Again people will be being led but are acting in good faith.

Finally there's been multiple people who are trans who have now been named on social media as possible suspects. Now this isn't right, because of the risk of a lynch mob but both had posted things online before the murder wishing Kirk dead / was dead so this has been seized on.

The idea that anyone who is following the case hasn't considered the possibility is crazy. They might have dismissed it outright citing prejudice however that thought has entered their head.

MN has taken it seriously, coupled with endless new threats to JKR because of the sheer number of death threats that have come from TRAs that they've been on the recieving end of.

Calling this prejudice, rather than a deep seated fear that has been expressed here for a long time about extremism and escalation is ridiculous in this context. There IS a massive problem you have to be blind to avoid with TRA death threats. It's not exactly as if 'kill a terf' or 'decapitate a terf' are particularly subtle messages that are easy to misinterpret is it?

If there hasnt been just so many threats then the fear that this has manifested as a TRA would not be as believable as it is. That's not the fault of feminists or MN. TRAs need to take a long hard look in the mirror about why making threats against TERFs doesn't make transpeople look good and makes them look suspicious.