Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women’s privacy and dignity

1000 replies

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 07/09/2025 13:43

I’ve just been to my local leisure centre swimming pool and while I was in the changing rooms a woman walked in from the showers, fully naked. I averted my eyes, and she walked quite close past me in a way which to me (and I fully accept I may well have imagined it) felt a bit pointed. I felt vaguely uncomfortable and embarrassed in the same way I would have if a man had walked in naked.

My impression is that the vast majority of people on this forum believe that it is a fundamental breach of women’s privacy and dignity if people with male biology (whether cisgender men or trans women) share changing facilities with women. Yet they do not consider that it undermines a woman’s privacy or dignity to have to get changed in front of other women, or to see other women naked.

I understand that many women have had experiences with men’s exhibitionist or voyeuristic behaviour which makes them specifically uncomfortable being undressed around men, or being around men who are undressed. But I’ve often seen the argument on here that it equally undermines men’s privacy and dignity to have to share changing facilities with women.

So my question is, do you think privacy and dignity are not infringed by having to get changed in front of people of the same sex? If not, why not?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
56
ArabellaSaurus · 10/09/2025 09:22

Actively and openly agitating against safeguarding. You don't often see that in the wild.

Now, children, can anyone tell me why would anyone be interested in less safeguarding?

TheKeatingFive · 10/09/2025 09:24

So everything that doesn't prioritise men's desires over women and children's safety/dignity/needs is 'bigotry'.

Gotcha.

You really said the quiet bit out loud here. I'm gobsmacked that you actually came out with that, if I'm honest.

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 10/09/2025 09:24

GailBlancheViola · 10/09/2025 08:57

Why am I not in the least surprised that you agree with that poster.

Perhaps you can answer this as that poster is unwilling to do so:

Why are you so desperate to force/coerce unconsenting women and girls into sharing toilet facilities and changing rooms with men and boys?

What have I said that makes you think I’m “desperate to force/coerce unconsenting women and girls into sharing toilet facilities and changing rooms with men and boys”?

OP posts:
ArabellaSaurus · 10/09/2025 09:26

I'm wondering when Shabhana Mahmood will be getting involved in the UK's recent outrageous police megabungle of 'hate crime'.

Pressure is growing from various sections of society. It's getting more and more stark that men who commit VAWG walk free, while women are relentlessly harassed and targeted for whistleblowing.

AnSolas · 10/09/2025 09:26

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 10/09/2025 08:47

You’ve summed it up perfectly. It’s sad, because on other areas of MN people are able to have interesting, genuine discussions on all sorts of topics, without the same group of users coming in every time to bully and hector and repeat the same catch phrases over and over

Dear Reader

Police recording hate crimes is a computer coding matter.

01.00 battery
01.10 battery hatecrime - sex¹
01.20 battery hate crime sexual orientation
01.30 battery hate crime - gender reassignment

¹ police can not record hate crimes which are motivated by the sex of the victim

Anyway

NDN A and B are having a spat over a parking space on the public road and NDN C calls the police.

Police arrive and speak to each party.

If its just shouty words its up to the officers involved to decide if a breach of the peace happened or not.
Eg
Option 1 no crime
Option 2 one or both get charged with breach of the peace.

If both say they were hit by the other.

The police will file a report on the system for 2 counts

Victim A. 01.00 battery

Victim B. 01.00 battery

If both say they were hit by the other.
NDN A said NDN B thinks A is trans and thats what why in As opinion B used violence.
The police can file a report on the system for 3 counts

Victim A. 01.00 battery
Victim A. 01.30 battery hate crime - gender reassignment

Victim B. 01.00 battery

If both say they were hit by the other.
NDN A said NDN B thinks A is trans and thats what why in As opinion B used violence.
NDN B said NDN A thinks B is trans and thats what why in Bs opinion A used violence.
The police can file a report on the system for 4 counts

Victim A. 01.00 battery
Victim A. 01.30 battery hate crime - gender reassignment

Victim B. 01.00 battery
Victim B. 01.30 battery hate crime - gender reassignment

If both say they were hit by the other.
NDN A said NDN B thinks A is gay and trans and thats what why in As opinion B used violence.
NDN B said NDN A thinks B is trans and thats what why in Bs opinion A used violence.
The police can file a report on the system for 5 counts

Victim A. 01.00 battery
Victim A. 01.02 battery hate crime - sexual orientation
Victim A. 01.03 battery hate crime - gender reassignment

Victim B. 01.00 battery
Victim B. 01.03 battery hate crime - gender reassignment

Now one problem the subjective nature of the classification it is reporting what the victim thinks is a motivation.

Another is the police have is that its up to the individual officer to select the correct code

And another is where the police officer has been instructed to select code "01.03 battery hate crime - gender reassignment" once the victim said "I am trans" not that the victim said "I believe the motive was because I an trans"

So the police themselves attach warnings about skewed data.

Even if the police data is under reporting the various crimes that is still not a justification to force women and girls into a situation where they must change with males.

The police themselves recognise that areas where women and girls are in a state of undress attracts predatory men

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdxqll74xnpo

https://www.dorset.police.uk/foi-ai/dorset-police/disclosure-logs/2025-disclosures/sex-offences-in-leisure-centres-and-swimming-pools/

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/sex_offences_in_leisure_centres_4

A computer generated image of what the pool at the proposed new Stevenage leisure centre could look like. There are ten swimming lanes with a number of people walking beside the pool. There are seats for people to sit to the right of the pool.

Voyeurism concerns at Stevenage pool's mixed changing rooms

A police officer suggests plans to retain mixed facilities at a leisure centre be reconsidered.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdxqll74xnpo

ArabellaSaurus · 10/09/2025 09:27

TheKeatingFive · 10/09/2025 09:24

So everything that doesn't prioritise men's desires over women and children's safety/dignity/needs is 'bigotry'.

Gotcha.

You really said the quiet bit out loud here. I'm gobsmacked that you actually came out with that, if I'm honest.

It's what always astonishes me, too. Im never sure whether its a lack of awareness of how most people view things, or a genuine delight in saying the unsayable.

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 10/09/2025 09:28

I find it pretty offensive that you’re all now snidely insinuating that the pp might have an unhealthy interest in children, just because they pointed out that ‘safeguarding’ can potentially be used as an excuse for maintaining discriminatory rules. Would you disagree that the unequal age of consent for gay men was both discriminatory and also maintained primarily on the basis of safeguarding?

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 10/09/2025 09:29

@Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks

Just so you understand. Statements designed around destabilising safeguarding by referring to safeguarding discussions as being ‘weaponised’ in any way are red flags you should be taking notice of. If I were you, I would be questioning what type of person tries to destabilise and dismiss safeguarding discussions as a previous poster has just done.

🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩

Watch out for red flags around dismissing safeguarding by trying to frame discussions around safeguarding as bigoted. Who benefits exactly from destabilising safeguarding and the outcomes of safeguarding .

TheKeatingFive · 10/09/2025 09:29

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 10/09/2025 09:28

I find it pretty offensive that you’re all now snidely insinuating that the pp might have an unhealthy interest in children, just because they pointed out that ‘safeguarding’ can potentially be used as an excuse for maintaining discriminatory rules. Would you disagree that the unequal age of consent for gay men was both discriminatory and also maintained primarily on the basis of safeguarding?

Anyone trying to suggest that safeguarding is less important than facilitating men's desires is setting off the red flags with me.

HTH

ArabellaSaurus · 10/09/2025 09:32

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 10/09/2025 09:28

I find it pretty offensive that you’re all now snidely insinuating that the pp might have an unhealthy interest in children, just because they pointed out that ‘safeguarding’ can potentially be used as an excuse for maintaining discriminatory rules. Would you disagree that the unequal age of consent for gay men was both discriminatory and also maintained primarily on the basis of safeguarding?

Who insinuated any such thing? You've created that accusation all by yourself.

Helleofabore · 10/09/2025 09:32

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 10/09/2025 09:28

I find it pretty offensive that you’re all now snidely insinuating that the pp might have an unhealthy interest in children, just because they pointed out that ‘safeguarding’ can potentially be used as an excuse for maintaining discriminatory rules. Would you disagree that the unequal age of consent for gay men was both discriminatory and also maintained primarily on the basis of safeguarding?

Why would you try to justify the swivel that this poster has just attempted?

Do you understand the premise of safeguarding? Because posting the way that poster you are now defending is a sign that that poster has no understanding of safeguarding. Which isn’t a surprise, we pointed it out to them early last week.

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 10/09/2025 09:33

TheKeatingFive · 10/09/2025 09:29

Anyone trying to suggest that safeguarding is less important than facilitating men's desires is setting off the red flags with me.

HTH

You haven’t answered my question. Or are you saying you think the age of consent for sex between men should have remained higher than that for straight sex?

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 10/09/2025 09:36

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 10/09/2025 09:24

What have I said that makes you think I’m “desperate to force/coerce unconsenting women and girls into sharing toilet facilities and changing rooms with men and boys”?

Your OP was trying to undermine the principle of privacy and dignity by saying that lots of women weren't bothered by it.

You then tried to frame women as vouyers for seeing other women in the women's changing room. After saying you knew lots of women had problems with vouyerism.

The whole OP was to undermine the three arguments that women have about males in their spaces - privacy, dignity and safeguarding.

You were trying to draw parallels between women 'flashing' and being seen by other women as 'vouyers'

This is all about misrepresentation to twist language to rewrite the idea of males who shouldn't be in the women's changing room aren't flashing cos women who strip off aren't flashing. It's trying to introduce the idea that women who look are voyeurist. It's about delegitimising womens' concerns. Thats the whole premise of the thread.

And I had a post deleted for saying this linguistic gymnastics made me feel uneasy.

And lo and behold you spring to the defence of a poster openly saying that there's too much safeguarding of children.

Mate you couldn't give off more red flags if you tried.

Helleofabore · 10/09/2025 09:37

AnSolas · 10/09/2025 09:26

Dear Reader

Police recording hate crimes is a computer coding matter.

01.00 battery
01.10 battery hatecrime - sex¹
01.20 battery hate crime sexual orientation
01.30 battery hate crime - gender reassignment

¹ police can not record hate crimes which are motivated by the sex of the victim

Anyway

NDN A and B are having a spat over a parking space on the public road and NDN C calls the police.

Police arrive and speak to each party.

If its just shouty words its up to the officers involved to decide if a breach of the peace happened or not.
Eg
Option 1 no crime
Option 2 one or both get charged with breach of the peace.

If both say they were hit by the other.

The police will file a report on the system for 2 counts

Victim A. 01.00 battery

Victim B. 01.00 battery

If both say they were hit by the other.
NDN A said NDN B thinks A is trans and thats what why in As opinion B used violence.
The police can file a report on the system for 3 counts

Victim A. 01.00 battery
Victim A. 01.30 battery hate crime - gender reassignment

Victim B. 01.00 battery

If both say they were hit by the other.
NDN A said NDN B thinks A is trans and thats what why in As opinion B used violence.
NDN B said NDN A thinks B is trans and thats what why in Bs opinion A used violence.
The police can file a report on the system for 4 counts

Victim A. 01.00 battery
Victim A. 01.30 battery hate crime - gender reassignment

Victim B. 01.00 battery
Victim B. 01.30 battery hate crime - gender reassignment

If both say they were hit by the other.
NDN A said NDN B thinks A is gay and trans and thats what why in As opinion B used violence.
NDN B said NDN A thinks B is trans and thats what why in Bs opinion A used violence.
The police can file a report on the system for 5 counts

Victim A. 01.00 battery
Victim A. 01.02 battery hate crime - sexual orientation
Victim A. 01.03 battery hate crime - gender reassignment

Victim B. 01.00 battery
Victim B. 01.03 battery hate crime - gender reassignment

Now one problem the subjective nature of the classification it is reporting what the victim thinks is a motivation.

Another is the police have is that its up to the individual officer to select the correct code

And another is where the police officer has been instructed to select code "01.03 battery hate crime - gender reassignment" once the victim said "I am trans" not that the victim said "I believe the motive was because I an trans"

So the police themselves attach warnings about skewed data.

Even if the police data is under reporting the various crimes that is still not a justification to force women and girls into a situation where they must change with males.

The police themselves recognise that areas where women and girls are in a state of undress attracts predatory men

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdxqll74xnpo

https://www.dorset.police.uk/foi-ai/dorset-police/disclosure-logs/2025-disclosures/sex-offences-in-leisure-centres-and-swimming-pools/

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/sex_offences_in_leisure_centres_4

Thank you.

The discussion really gets bogged down when posters are focused on using hate crimes as a gauge for the vulnerability of people.

This rabbit hole into hate crimes was just more sparpling.

TheKeatingFive · 10/09/2025 09:40

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 10/09/2025 09:33

You haven’t answered my question. Or are you saying you think the age of consent for sex between men should have remained higher than that for straight sex?

I do not particularly see the relevance to this thread. If you want, start a specific thread on it, link it here and I'll give it my full attention on that thread. Otherwise it's just derailing important discussion here.

Namelessnelly · 10/09/2025 09:40

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 10/09/2025 08:47

You’ve summed it up perfectly. It’s sad, because on other areas of MN people are able to have interesting, genuine discussions on all sorts of topics, without the same group of users coming in every time to bully and hector and repeat the same catch phrases over and over

I know!, how DARE women keep saying no to men. The absolute cheek of them. You tell ‘em mate! They should just give it up and allow men in all female spaces.

Helleofabore · 10/09/2025 09:41

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 10/09/2025 09:33

You haven’t answered my question. Or are you saying you think the age of consent for sex between men should have remained higher than that for straight sex?

What is the relevance to this discussion?

Are you trying to leverage what was potentially a case of illegitimate discrimation towards a group with same sex attraction to legitimise the discussion of destabilising safeguarding discussions around the needs of female people?

Are you about to argue that safeguarding discussions and safeguarding policies that exclude a group of male people from female single sex provisions are based on prejudice and not legitimate?

AnSolas · 10/09/2025 09:42

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 10/09/2025 08:47

You’ve summed it up perfectly. It’s sad, because on other areas of MN people are able to have interesting, genuine discussions on all sorts of topics, without the same group of users coming in every time to bully and hector and repeat the same catch phrases over and over

Did you forget to remember that you came to post about how naked women make you feel your privacy and dignity are infringed by having to get changed in front of women?

That poster very clearly and openly stated that the only reason that poster joined the thread was to argue for men to be allowed into womens single sex spaces.

It has been pointed out on the thread that the poster continues to spam threads with the same catch phrases and links to what the poster claims is evidence.

The poster dismissed the rape of a young girl in a UK toilet as not relevant to the discussion as to why men should be excluded from WSSS.

Namelessnelly · 10/09/2025 09:43

Howseitgoin · 10/09/2025 07:18

But but but but but….

So it's the police that are recording non violent crime as violent ?

😂

The same police thst turn up if a man is misgendered but say threats to rape and kill women are acceptable? You’re not exactly making a strong argument here mate.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 10/09/2025 09:43

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 10/09/2025 09:33

You haven’t answered my question. Or are you saying you think the age of consent for sex between men should have remained higher than that for straight sex?

Sorry but how is this relevant to the question of whether women and girls should be allowed to have penis-free spaces?

RedToothBrush · 10/09/2025 09:46

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 10/09/2025 09:28

I find it pretty offensive that you’re all now snidely insinuating that the pp might have an unhealthy interest in children, just because they pointed out that ‘safeguarding’ can potentially be used as an excuse for maintaining discriminatory rules. Would you disagree that the unequal age of consent for gay men was both discriminatory and also maintained primarily on the basis of safeguarding?

'Snidely insinuating' that someone is a paedo.

No one did that.

They said that someone was displaying red flags.

We should be concerned because there are only two camps that wish to remove safeguarding - ignorant, naive people who are too privileged and arrogant to listen to those who have been abused and end up enabling abusers in the process or people who abuse.

Scouting has the policy that no scout leader gives a child a lift home alone. Even if they are being nice and there's a reason why this might be appreciated.

Why?

Because if they do this they blur boundaries and allow abusers to exploit this excuse.

All the people who ignore this are immediately are treated as a risk because we can't easily tell the difference. So everything is done to prevent the situation occurring so there is no opportunity to exploit.

The nice person doing the nice thing is a risk to children by their stupidity.

We treat everyone with suspicion for good reason. Because that's how safeguarding works.

The fact you choose to frame this as 'snidely insinuating' shows you also falling into the trap and presenting red flags.

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 10/09/2025 09:47

TheKeatingFive · 10/09/2025 09:40

I do not particularly see the relevance to this thread. If you want, start a specific thread on it, link it here and I'll give it my full attention on that thread. Otherwise it's just derailing important discussion here.

This seems like quite a lazy way of avoiding answering a question you don’t want to answer

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 10/09/2025 09:47

As I said previously. Thus thread is MRA central.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 10/09/2025 09:48

AnSolas · 10/09/2025 09:42

Did you forget to remember that you came to post about how naked women make you feel your privacy and dignity are infringed by having to get changed in front of women?

That poster very clearly and openly stated that the only reason that poster joined the thread was to argue for men to be allowed into womens single sex spaces.

It has been pointed out on the thread that the poster continues to spam threads with the same catch phrases and links to what the poster claims is evidence.

The poster dismissed the rape of a young girl in a UK toilet as not relevant to the discussion as to why men should be excluded from WSSS.

Yes.

The world according to @Howseitgoin:

The sexual assault of two pre-teen girls carried out by a trans identifying male person in women's toilets = isolated incidents which are statistically insignificant, and not a reason why trans identifying male people should be excluded from women's toilets.

The complete absence of any recorded instances of trans identifying male people being harmed by men in men's toilets = irrelevant because we do not need any evidence to demonstrate that trans identifying male people are at risk in men's toilets, and we should accept without question that they should be allowed in women's toilets.

The fact that some of them will then go on to harm women and girls in women's toilets is acceptable collateral damage.

Apparently.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 10/09/2025 09:48

Mrspenguinsschoolforfreaks · 10/09/2025 09:33

You haven’t answered my question. Or are you saying you think the age of consent for sex between men should have remained higher than that for straight sex?

When you back yourself into a corner like this OP, plucking out of the air a completely different rights issue, it merely confirms the suspicion that you had an agenda all along for your initial post.

It's a shame as there's a genuine discussion about how women view our naked bodies with issues about girls and their rights / needs. But your fawning attitude to a poster who's all over this thread sneering at women and now undermining the need for society to safeguard children and the vulnerable does suggest a different motivation?

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread