EHRC has now sent its new guidance to ministers

[Charabanc]

Here we go...

ETA it's not "guidance" any more, it's the new Code

Equality law regulator submits updated code of practice to Minister for Women and Equalities

Baroness Kishwer Falkner, Chairwoman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, said:

“Over the past two years the EHRC has undertaken a major project to update the entire statutory code of practice, which was published in 2011, to reflect over ten years of new legislation. Following the Supreme Court ruling in For Women Scotland Ltd v The Scottish Ministers in April, some additional sections required further revision.

“We have now submitted an updated draft of the code to the Minister for Women and Equalities. The government is responsible for laying it before Parliament. Once Parliament has considered its content, I look forward to the EHRC publishing this guidance, fulfilling our statutory role to provide clear information that protects everyone's rights under the Equality Act 2010.

“We have been clear that service providers, associations and public functions should not wait for the code of practice to be published to make any changes needed to comply with the law. As duty-bearers they must assure themselves of their legal responsibilities in their own specific circumstances and seek independent legal advice where necessary.”

Following ministerial approval, the UK Government must lay the draft code before Parliament for 40 days before it can be brought into force.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/equality-law-regulator-submits-updated-code-practice-minister-women-and-equalities

Your points are valid. I’m curious if you think there is anything that could be done to convince TIMs to voluntarily self exclude from female only spaces?

No. Their entire world view depends on a fundamental point, trans women are actual women. No crack can be allowed in that because then the entire thing falls down. This leads to obviously false claims like, sport is segregated for sexist reasons, (not factual differences in lung capacity and average bone length).

there is no scenario where trans people accept third spaces.

I think the fact of it not being pandered to, being expected to obey the rules, or providers getting tough - eg banning transgressors from the gym - would deter all but the most determined. Beyond that, the behaviour of other TiMs/TiFs who do respect single sex spaces might be persuasive. Restoration of the social contract. Not perfect but on the whole it works. And women wouldn't be in trouble for raising the alarm.

Yes, I agree. I just want organisations to be obliged to make it clear that our spaces are either single sex female only or fully mixed sex. And all workplaces in particular, because I think that will move it along.

there is no scenario where trans people accept third spaces.

I would agree if you had said all trans people, but I do know trans people who would accept third spaces. Indeed I know trans people who use third spaces - whether they always do, I don't know. I have heard a trans person suggest that third spaces would be a satisfactory solution, from their perspective.

Having considered the various points I have another thought. How important is it that gender critical/sex realist people be seen by the public as being open to offering reasonable solutions (in this instance third spaces), as opposed to taking the stance of “we are in the right and will therefore make no concessions”. I agree that there are a subset of TIMs that will never accept third spaces, but do you think this would help convince supporters of trans-identifying people that single sex spaces should be respected?

It's not up to us to give "concessions". It's the law.

And as TIMs think they are biological females, and need our presence for their validation, they will hate third spaces.

It's not up to us to come up with solutions for a problem which is manufactured. There are already unisex toilets. The problem isn't a lack of toilet provision, it's unreasonable and entitled people who don't want to use the facilities which are available and fanatical allies who support them. Many TiFs and TiMs do, to be fair to them, or use appropriate single sex facilities.

The vast majority of men and women prefer single sex communal facilities.

I will present a solution: everyone stops pretending.

You're obviously new to this. We have offered third spaces as a solution for around 10 years. It is the trans activists that won't compromise and say third spaces 'out' them and 'other' them. THEY reject it. Take your compromise up with them.

I listened to the Tanya Grunwald podcast recently on this issue (highly recommend her This Isn’t Working podcast for anyone interested). I’m getting ever more irate that employers are claiming need for clarification via guidelines. It’s absolutely ridiculous.

I wonder if the leadership contest is going to delay this being laid before parliament? I’ve not seen any notification that it has been?

It has been laid before Parliament - about a week ago iirc and will become statutory 40 days after that.

Has Bridget Phillipson signed it off yet? It won't be laid before Parliament until she does.

And now she is running for Deputy Leader of the Labour Party!

Yes she has. It has gone before parliament & the 40 days are counting down. The deputy leadership competition is neither here nor there

I know we always look for "oh god what now?" scenarios but this is clear cut. Guidance is before parliament & if no serious objections as in 'this contravenes the law' not 'we don't like it wah wah are received' from MP then it will simply stand

Oh cool! Well done Bridge.

Yes there is a very high bar to pass to get the debate and free vote that the TRAs and a few captured MPs are demanding.

#nodebate is what they wanted, and that's what they've got! 😆

Are you sure about that? I can;t find any news articles on it at all?

We have offered third spaces as a solution for around 10 years.

I don't think the disabled offered their spaces.. (See also: wheelchair spaces on buses). It was done on their behalf. Like taking sugar, I guess.

I never mentioned disabled spaces. I meant gender neutral. Male, female, and gender neutral. Disabled spaces are not included in that.

I think you misunderstand. A third space does not have to be/should not be a disabled space. Blame companies and service providers for that, not women.

When do we get to see it? After the 40 days I assume?

40 days after it has been laid but I am not convinced it has been given not a single MP has said it has been (unless I missed it)

The guidance has been given to the Minister responsible and it's for her to lay it before Parliament. It's a technicality and it would be seismic if it wasn't approved.

As PPs have said, I can't find any evidence that she has laid it before parliament.

Also, it's forty sitting days, so would take us up to Christmas recess, I guess?

Surely, the minute she lays it, then MPs who don't like it will be publicising it? And that hasn't happened yet.

Wouldn't be the first time that guidance has been ignored. The ACMD has been told to go away until it returns with the "correct" answer after doing it's job. And then ignored when it didn't.