Struggling with my political allegiance now and it's really bothering me

[Appalonia]

Since the eighties, I have been a leftie, raised money for the Miners ' strike, was in the SWP for a while in the 90s, lifelong Guardian reader, worked for charities for most of my career. However, I'm so disillusioned with what the left has become now. It started as for many of us with the trans issue, seeing formally trusted and respected institutions like the BBC, the Guardian, C4 etc either ignore, or blatantly skew the issues, the only place I could read the truth about what was happening was on ' right wing' media outlets that I would have dismissed outright previously.

Since it was only right wing outlets or posters that were talking about this, pp like Douglas Murray, Jordan Peterson, The Spectator etc, I feel like I've been exposed to right wing views that I now feel more more aligned to than left wing commentators like Owen Jones, Mark Steel, most comedians etc.

I now listen to Trigggernometry, Free Speech Nation The Lotus Eaters, and I'm starting to feel more aligned to them on other issues now, like free speech, immigration etc.

So, I'm thinking about the demonstration for free speech in London on 13 September in London and part of me really wants to go because I think it's really important and what's happened with the trans debate and how it's been reported in the press and how so many gender critical pp have been silenced. And it's not just about GC views, it's about free speech in general. But the people who are organising this, is really putting me off. I want to go and stand up for what I believe in but at the same time, this demo is being characterised as a ' far right' demonstration, and I don't want to be associated with that. In fact, years ago, I would have been on the other side, demonstrating against fascists.

I just can't disentangle it all in my mind, I believe in free speech and I do believe it's under threat in the UK, but at the same time I don't want to be associated with pp like Tommy Robinson. But even saying that, just watching his interview on Triggernometry was eye opening. Can anyone relate to this? I just feel so conflicted right now.

Sorry, I don't feel I've expressed myself very well, there's so much more th an this. I just can't square my identity of myself of a life long socialist with how much I disagree with so much of what the left stands for now, that I just don't agree with.

Mine did for a bit but I think I managed to stuff them back in - hopefully ;)

I agree though, I think my worldview is stronger and more predictive of events than my old one, and I really enjoy the new company and conversations.

It is hard to maintain a "foot in both camps" for an extended period I think though, because of the destabilisation. I think this is why many of the "heterodox" communities that spring up end up at least partially converging on a common worldview (which might bring in strands from various sides) rather than remaining a free for all for years at a time.

Green washing has had the effect of merely shifting problems to another part of the world so we can say we aren't the problem whilst still continuing to buy even more crap at even lower prices. All whilst manufacturing in this country has died this meaning there's less jobs in this area in the UK and adding to economic woes so we can't invest in better technology which actually does reduce emissions. The focus on emissions rather than consumption is the issue and is one of fiddling the numbers to make something look better than it is in reality whilst putting ourselves at greater security risk in the process.

It's a fucking farce.

We've had friends have a go at us for still having a small petrol car (which we've been getting 70mpg over the lifetime of the car) rather than replacing it with an electric. They meanwhile have bought a huge new electric car. If we were to replace our car the cost you have to factor in the cost of producing a whole new car and all the associated consumption of it which given the size of their monster probably would be more than any potential savings to the environment. We don't drive a huge amount as it is. It makes no fucking sense. But they can't compete that 'its a bit more complicated' than merely looking at the type of fuel.

Omnicause recitals are incapable of the concept of 'its a bit more complicated'. Weirdly I've had more productive conversations with people who others might term 'close minded' who have gone 'oh you know what, thanks for that I hadn't considered that point, that's really interesting and maybe I'm not as right on this as I thought I was'.

It's really fucking frustrating. It's the arrogance of righteous rather than being genuinely interested in a subject and wanting to know more about it.

I can see why that seems like a perfectly reasonable argument in @Howseitgoin head

Snigger

Strawman.
Logistics & commonsense dictate that a limited amount of cops v thousands of protesters means some criminals will slip thru the cracks. This is true of all protests & not 'special' for trans protests. I can't believe I need to explain this obvious logistical fact but here we are.

Your problem being further resourcing needs to be taken up with the tax payer not trans people.

It wasn't a myth. It was a viable industry, in that we were still using coal, except now having to import it from abroad, and it was necessary in that whole communities were dependent upon it.

You're not alone. I am totally politically homeless. Last election I went to the hustings and looked at what all the candidates said about all the issues I care about, education, economy, democracy, freedom or speech and women's rights and I realised none of them represented me.

How are they slipping through the cracks when they are literally marching on the streets, inciting violence against women, with their faces on show, being photographed and filmed? I can't think of many arrests that would be easier, to be honest.

How is that more difficult than trying to identify who raped and murdered a woman in a poorly lit area late at night when there was no CCTV?

Oh and by the way the violent behaviour of trans activists is absolutely the responsibility of the "trans community".

Interesting haven’t rtft but will. Also hadn’t quite clocked the rally in September was cited as being for free speech.

I feel exactly the same - you're not alone. I was always very left wing, but it feels like the wheels have completely come off that bandwagon. I put it down to me ageing (the cliche being that people move rightward as they get older) but I'm starting to think it's something else.

I have to keep my mouth shut around most of my friends (v. left wing) as when I've expressed anything around the trans issue I've been accused of being a QAnon-er (!).

Israel / Palestine is another one - anything other than wishing for the destruction of Israel etc. etc. apparently makes me a fascist

Seriously, you think a face being exposed in a large crowd is enough to ID someone? We don't have that technology yet. What we would need is serious public advertising like we do for killers & rapists & for someone to step forward to identify that person. An in case you haven't noticed we don't even have the funds for the most serious of criminals to be publicly outed.

Again, what you are proposing isn't practical.

😂

They could have gone a different way to this authoritarian and lie based rhetoric.

It is pushing more people right.

@SionnachRuadh write that book. I would read it 😁

Likewise 😁screenshot us in your book proposal as evidence of readership demand!

@Shortshriftandlethal There is still coal beneath us. It became very difficult to extract from narrow deep seems consequently more expensive.
BTW I was in favour of the Cumbria mine for hard coking coal. DH met the company planning it.

”I also found it really interesting to explore feminism from a conservative lens for a while. Like, female activists who opposed things that seemed "weird" to oppose, like female suffrage or women in the workplace or liberal divorce laws or abortion. Exploring what the female-centric arguments for those things might be. Almost like alternate history.”

Conservative feminism and non-feminist feminism are really interesting. Was Phyllis Schafly a more important figure than the libertarian feminists she opposed? Was Mary Whitehouse a prophetic figure? I listened to a fascinating discussion between Louise Perry and Kate Phelan about the way feminism has been absorbed by progressivism so that it’s become a dead letter. Fairer Disputations is a good source of articles exploring more conservative versions of feminism — particularly centring motherhood and caring for children.

Yes, me too! I think it’s a book that needs to be written.

The American still using a yank online dictionary instead of an Australian/English one.

🙄

On the point of where feminism has gone, I find the whole Lily Philips and Bonnie Blue situations really problematic in terms of the progressive position of 'it's all fine as long as she consents'.

I can't look at what they're doing and decide that's a positive direction for them or womem generally

Well then you put your big boy pants stab vests on and you go into the crowd and you start picking people off until you've filled your police vans up with the little placard waving bastards and you take them down to the police station and you fucking fingerprint them all and you run them through the system and see if they already have a record and then you assess whether the behaviour that you witnessed meets the threshold to charge them with a crime or whether you'll have to let them off with a caution this time.

You know, good old fashioned policing. What the taxpayer is paying you for.

No, you won't get all the little fuckers every time, but if some of them get criminal records and lose their jobs, the others might think better of it next time.

Or you could throw your hands in the air and say, "oh no, it's just too difficult to get these trans activists to respect the laws of this country, let's send five armed police officers to Heathrow to arrest Graham Linehan and pick up some coffee and Krispy Kremes on the way back."

Disclaimer: I'm politically ignorant but starting to do a bit of reading since my DD is getting into politics... However, as I hadn't seen it mentioned yet, is anyone else interested in Tim Allen (formerly of Sex Matters) being recruited by Labour? Could this mean Labour are looking to position themselves as an option for GC ex lefties who don't want to go full on far right?

Just to say I feel as you do OP. I can't help feeling it's existential - it's the death of hope. I'm hoping Blue Labour can gain ground but I'm not holding my breath.

I hold Labour responsible for the rise of the far right due to their obsession with identity politics while holding the white working class in contempt.
On the subject of algorithms I am getting feed from people I really disagree with and obsessively fact check just as I did when fed left wing content. If someone wants to recommend serious left wing thinkers - bring it on.

The problem is with the GC crowd is they seem to be under the misguided impression that:

A. Resources are infinite &
B. Think the world should revolves around them.

Now I know this may sound crazy but the way resource distribution works is they are usually divided up with top priorities first like actual serious crimes like murder & rape with threats that might occur thereafter. And as you might be aware (but not by the sound of it) there isn't enough already to go around for those more serious crimes. Are you seriously suggesting policing of more serious crimes &usually against women) be sidelined for placard threats? Doesn't sound very feminist centred to me.

That's not to say threats against anyone including Jews, Muslims or women etc shouldn't be investigated rather, real world limitations don't always make that possible rather than a conspiratorial plot to dud the 'GC's'.

You're missing the point that emboldening grim little misogynists AND giving them social capital for it (because they're the 'right' sort of grim little misogynists) leads to bad outcomes for women generally.

So basically: nip the little fuckers in the bud balls. It's like arresting flashers prevents rapes down the line.

(How dare autocorrect turn my 'fuckers' into 'tuckers' - although ironically, some of them probably are! )