NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #52

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:
drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025

The Judge managed to pronounce Maya's surname correctly.

Judge asking about Maya's evidence

The judge pronounces Maya's surname perfectly.

So maybe someone being attacked/raped in a mixed sex toilet or CR that didn’t comply with the Regs, because only mixed sex facilities without sinks inside lockable doors were provided.

I think the Judge is much more on this than we've given him credit for. The questions are strong and insightful and are inviting the intelligent and educated responses from NC.

Will look forward to JR's session.....

Or taking into account what MyAmpleSheep has posted, maybe it was that the the Health and Safety Executive only tend to take enforcement action if they think somebody will lose a leg? Loss of limbs was definitely involved in his example!

From TT

is set out in the schedule as specific detriments.

J - what is MF evidence, if not skilled evidence, what is it

NC - it is the opposite end of skilled evidence, what the Tribunal doesn't usually hear from are non-experts. MF is not expert in the facts of the dispute in question

J - what do you say the evidence is?

NC - at one end is skilled evidence, expert, in the middle are witnesses to the matter in question, she is a witness of fact, all she's telling you about is facts so commonplace, C could have called almost any adult of sound mind to give that

Just to reiterate NC said (from TT) re Upton 'it may be a belief that is protected, that doesn't arise for your determination, if it did arise it might be argued that in the form in which DU holds it, you may recall DU said no obligation to disclose sex to someone who requested a female doctor. It might not be found to be WORIADS but that is not for your determination. '

really glad to see NC bringing this to public attention again- the fact Upton said and he would treat a woman without her consent, who said female staff only (and not tell them he was a bloke -which is obvious to us, but may not be to a woman in great pain or drugged up etc).

This is assault as far as I know- a criminal offence. Judge should refer Upton (and the other lying drs who said they didn't understand what sex is) to GMC in my view.
:

Still catching up with the morning sessions, but am I understanding correctly that JR wishes to amend the defence on the grounds that:

• At some point in the past SP is alleged to have said something bad but unrelated to this issue, about a different doctor;
• And although this incident was not reported at the time, has never been investigated, cannot be corroborated, and the doctor in question has no memory of it, it nevertheless very definitely might have happened;
• And this means SP may also have said unspecified mean things about Upton (behind his back), which have not been mentioned at any point during the case;
• So SP is very definitely a Big Meanie, or at least the absence of evidence for her being a Big Meanie doesn't prove she isn’t one;
• As a result of which, Fife was justified in taking any disciplinary action they wished with or without due process, and it's not their fault?

From TT

evidence, MF is above average well educated in the matters in question, and she gave evidence that women are in general more fearful of men, men are larger and stronger than women, etc. Everyone knows these things.

J - you say there has been compliance with the practice direction

Correct. Except a third party say they heard SP call a doctor the P word, and it came to light that SP may have said DU was a weirdo in private conversations, only stated by a frenemy of hers.

From TT

J that she testified as to knowledge she had

NC - any woman could have testified to those facts, all women have experienced it, the risk assessment changes radically if it is a man or a woman.

J - Rs argue that there isn't a correlation between men and TW on the issue of risk and the EA seeks to avoid stereotypes, what do you say to the suggestion that if the 2nd R is a higher risk, that is stereotyping.

NC - the whole concept of indirect discrim depends on stereotyping, in the EA, and the PSED, for example a height restriction impacts women more

So you'd need an chainsaw weilding man in a dress to sever a woman's leg in the ladies before they would act? I can see why women opt for the ET.

Must go to the loo. BRB, but on crutches.

Judge done with NC

Five min break

from herald
2:49pm
Employment Judge Kemp asked Naomi Cunningham why she had called Maya Forstater as a witness.
During her evidence at the tribunal, Ms Forstater, the chief executive and founder of the campaign group Sex Matters, stated that her organisation's position is not that men are dangerous predators, but rather that men as a group are a risk, and men who identify as transwomen continue to form part of that group.
Ms Cunningham replied: “She is a witness of fact. All she's telling you about is facts, but she's telling you about facts so commonplace that the claimant could have called almost any woman of sound mind, or indeed almost any adult of sound mind and a reasonable level of general knowledge, to give evidence to these facts.”
She added: “It so happens that Ms Forstater is above average, well educated in the relevant matters, and for that reason, her evidence of fact was able to be considerably more sophisticated than some random adult.”
“Any woman who has ever walked down a dark street at night holding her keys in her hand after an attack, or travelled home on a late-night bus, knows that when she becomes conscious of another person following a few paces behind her, her risk assessment changes radically depending on whether that person’s a man.”

WIsh I could hear what MF is saying to NC. He looks like he's making a significant point.

NC is getting an excellent opportunity to say again that it is not stereotyping to say that the vast majority of sexual offences including exhibitionism and voyeurism are perpetrated by men against women. It is a fact.

I still don't think the judge is as au fait with the matter and its contexts as he should be. He's now suggesting he wants to submit requests for stats and information on offendng rates etc. He's being led by NC.

M Foran getting some quality break talking to Naomi air time!

I wish that NC had brought up the disparity of TIM's in prison. How much more they are likely to be convicted of a sexual assault than the general Men's population.

I dont think acquiring the statistics is a terrible idea, it's hard to argue with numbers.

TT's 2nd afternoon tweets

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1962852336448999637.html

Presumably that was part of MF's evidence?

I could have waited five minutes!!! 😂😂😂

From TT

than men. And so with the propensity to violence, MF data was from the ONS, men are more violent than women. JR said it was unreasonable to proceed on the basis that all men are or might be predators.

Nevertheless we widely operate SSS, women don't want to get undressed in the presence of men. And that's not just modesty and preference. The vast majority of sexual offences are perpetrated by men against women, including voyeurism and the like. And we operate SSS to mitigate the risk of those.

J - thank you I have some detailed qs for you that I will send via email, citations and requests for cases. etc. Let's take a short break. Court rises.