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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Posting upton’s old photos and name on twitter

621 replies

Biggadyboom · 02/09/2025 08:22

Look I’ve been in these discussions since before this forum existed. You don’t need to break it down for me. I peaked in 2018.

But the endless sharing of upton’s name accompanied by photos and horrible comments about him and his wife is not nice. It is totally is transphobia. It’s horrible.

I could kind of understand the point of it, if it was just the name being shared.

But equally the court has ruled that Upton has a right to privacy. I thought it was all about respecting court’s rulings?

but the sharing of private photos (presumably grabbed from social media) and especially their wedding photo with insults to both of them and speculation about their marriage is awful and will not help their be a resolution to this debate. It polarises it even more and is transphobia.

fair enough, don’t let Upton change the rules of the country and workplace based on personal beliefs . But that doesn’t involve posting personal information and photos , insults and horrible speculation.

or are we just going low now?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
TheKeatingFive · 03/09/2025 09:21

Howseitgoin · 03/09/2025 09:08

No one has said that they are all predatory sex fetishists.

Oh yes they have.

Please explain how we can keep all the predatory sex fetishists out of women's toilets though.

You can never do that because the problem was never about 'permission' it's about being alone & vulnerable. Laws will only go so far regarding deterrence as we know for all sexual violent crimes.

Oh yes they have.

Who? Where?

Helleofabore · 03/09/2025 09:22

Howseitgoin · 03/09/2025 09:08

No one has said that they are all predatory sex fetishists.

Oh yes they have.

Please explain how we can keep all the predatory sex fetishists out of women's toilets though.

You can never do that because the problem was never about 'permission' it's about being alone & vulnerable. Laws will only go so far regarding deterrence as we know for all sexual violent crimes.

No one has. Because that would be a false claim.

Because for a start, I don’t believe female people with transgender identities are described as predators or sex fetishists.

And we also know that there are many male people with transgender identities who don’t demand use of female single sex provisions and who don’t demand language and language conventions are changed to fit their demands, and who treat female people with respect.

Please post the time and date of any post since you have arrived on this board that has made the claim:

trans people are all predatory sex fetishists.

AnSolas · 03/09/2025 09:23

Howseitgoin · 03/09/2025 08:24

Some generalisations are in common use and serve certain purposes.
Single sex spaces exist for this reason, as do many health, education and other services. One cannot know everything little thing about each individual when planning a service or a provision.
Generalisations are not essentailly negative. They take a known and understood pattern and apply it more widely for positive purposes in all sorts of situations.

The context of this discussion was hate speech IE generalisations with abusive prejudice. Not all male bodied people are deluded predatory violent sex pests & to normalise false stereotypical narratives is a dangerous risk to civil society because it doesn't end well as Nazi germany & other genocides show. Now whilst I appreciate that logistics matter, there's no benefit to use inflammatory generalisations. Particularly given the necessary condition for sexual violence to occur is when the victim is isolated/alone & not because the perpetrator had 'permission'. Sexual abusers don't seem to be deterred even by laws & punishment.

www.un.org/en/hate-speech/understanding-hate-speech/hate-speech-and-real-harm

Dear Readers

Is it wrong to say

"Please fuck right off with the utter fucking stupid fucking idea that the only fuckin way a woman can fucking be subjected to fucking sexual violence is if she is alone." ?

Or to suggest that

" if a fuckin Doctor wants to wave his fuckin penis around in a room full of women

and is making a fucking list of women who object

and is on to his fuckin Union to find out how the fuck he can fuckin force the women who dont want to be in the fuckin room to participate in his fuckin public penis waving

and whining to his fuckin Manager about a woman refusing to participate in his fuckin penis waving

and is fuckin making up fucking stories to have that woman removed from her role and removed from her profession

he is subjecting her to sexual violence not the him loosing his fuckin shit and battering her type of violence it is a fuckin calculating use of fuckin power to try to fuckin force women to participate in his funkin penis waving activity" ?

Howseitgoin · 03/09/2025 09:23

No one has said that they are all predatory sex fetishists.
Oh yes they have.
Please explain how we can keep all the predatory sex fetishists out of women's toilets though.
You can never do that because the problem was never about 'permission' it's about being alone & vulnerable. Laws will only go so far regarding deterrence as we know for all sexual violent crimes.

This is all pure academia now...if we can grace it with that label.
The Supreme Court has established that female single sex spaces and services are for female people only. By this time next year that should have sunk in and heel draggers will have 'got with the game'......and most organisations will have moved to providing facilities that can be used by those with trans identities, without encroaching on protected female only spaces,

That won't prevent sexual violence tho. As I said, perpetrators don't need permission.

If anything it will just normalise a culture of fear, suspicion & harassment of any female that doesn't appear 'feminine' enough as has already happened.

Typicalwave · 03/09/2025 09:24

Howseitgoin · 03/09/2025 09:18

DeanElderberry · Today 09:11

** "they acknowledge behavioural, psychological & cultural associations
aka they are committed to enforcing arbitrary culturally-specific sex-role stereotypes. Seems mentally unwell to me."

As in suggesting all men are violent ergo they shouldn't have access to women's spaces?

Works both ways.

Stereotypes do point to on average facts in both cases as they do elsewhere.

All you have are ridiculous circular arguments and word salad

We’ve heard all your nonsense before.

It’s not possible to change sex.

Women and girls are a discreet sex class. Men do not and cannot belong in that sex class.

Simples.

MyAmpleSheep · 03/09/2025 09:24

Biggadyboom · 03/09/2025 09:01

"Do you think that it is a safeguarding issue that the senior doctor in the ED wanted PS arrested for failing to believe/see a male doctor (who would expect staff to bring him to a woman who asked for same sex care) as a female?"

yes!

If you peaked and hold the belief that a medical doctor employed by the NHS lacks a rudimentary understanding of human biology
a) what are you doing about it?
b) what would you suggest others do about it?

a) Writing to MPs, public bodies, talking to friends/family.
b) ditto

So if people had been posting the same stuff about someone who was not trans would you be coming here scolding us for that too? It’s not transphobia, it’s justified outrage at a man bullying women into undressing in front of him. Would you be ok if a non trans male did the same thing? If not, why not?

I don't think it's justified outrage. It's justified outrage to point out he is a man, regardless of how he wants to indentitfy. It's justified outrage to point out that NHS Fife and the Scottish Government have given him permission to act in the way he has and failed SP. But I think namecalling and posting private photos (regardless of assumptions how they got in the public domain) is abuse, and that some of the comments I saw in particular under his wedding photo crossed a line into transphobia. Because calling a trans woman a "pervert" is rooted in long-standing anti-trans stereotypes and bigotry and calling their partner an "enabler" implies that supporting a trans person is wrong or harmful, which further stigmatizes both the individual and those who care about them.

I can see the point of posting his old name, Streisand effect and all, even though personally I'm not doing it.

But sticking to the main example I've mentioned here, I think posting a wedding photo and commenting underneath "perv and enabler" is transphobic.

I again apologise for my assumption that there would be a crossover between mumsnet and twitter, that obviously has offended and I wish I'd phrased it differently. Reflecting I think it's probably because I generally keep up with issues in this debate through a mixture of twitter and this forum and so have them linked in my head. My profile on twitter is my real identity (use it for work) and I work in the arts, so if I tried to have a discussion on there I would never work again. So I suppose I decided to come here instead. Genuinely didn't think that it's offend, you can see that by my second post. Pretty naive and guilty of seeing things thru my own lens, but I do apologise.

To a certain extent this thread did give me what I was looking for which was a discussion on why people think it's ok to post photos and nasty comments because the majority have disagreed with me and say they don't think it's transphobic and they would have done the same because of "justified outrage" at Upton.

I don't agree with that.

I still don't believe he is a woman and that the state should be allowing him to use single sex spaces. or persecuting, suspending or smearing people who object. I don't think the laws of our country should be changed around his beliefs. But I do think he and his wife shouldn't be subject to abuse that centres around his trans identity, which I think pervert and enabler is. I think that crosses a line. and other comments I posted earlier in the thread.

But most of you disagree. Which is fine, happy to leave it there. I've learnt a fair bit about attitudes and appreciate everyone's time.

Thanks all.

I've learnt a fair bit about attitudes and appreciate everyone's time.

This needs to be added to the Bingo card, as a TRA special. It’s the most passive aggressive flounce line going, right next to “HTH”.

Helleofabore · 03/09/2025 09:25

Howseitgoin · 03/09/2025 09:15

Some transwomen absolutely do. India Willoughby thinks he has changed sex and has a cervix.

Depending on the context she is correct. There's 'sex' as in born with reproductive characteristics that distinguish males from females & there's 'sex' as in a person possessing characteristics that distinguish males from females.

You've got to remember the word sex specifically denotes distinguishing features between the sexes. See 1(b)

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sex

Willoughby does not have a cervix.

Meceme · 03/09/2025 09:25

Dad should always take his small daughter to the mens loo if there is no family, baby change, accessible facilities.
That's what my husband did with our daughter 30 years ago when facilities were much more basic than now. She's safe with her dad, he can shield her eyes if necessary and have a pack of wet wipes in case the loo is minging.
Access to provision should always be on the sex if the adult.

Howseitgoin · 03/09/2025 09:26

Oh yes they have.
Who? Where?

Many explicitly on twitter routinely.
JK Rowling implicitly on twitter routinely.

TheKeatingFive · 03/09/2025 09:26

Howseitgoin · 03/09/2025 09:23

No one has said that they are all predatory sex fetishists.
Oh yes they have.
Please explain how we can keep all the predatory sex fetishists out of women's toilets though.
You can never do that because the problem was never about 'permission' it's about being alone & vulnerable. Laws will only go so far regarding deterrence as we know for all sexual violent crimes.

This is all pure academia now...if we can grace it with that label.
The Supreme Court has established that female single sex spaces and services are for female people only. By this time next year that should have sunk in and heel draggers will have 'got with the game'......and most organisations will have moved to providing facilities that can be used by those with trans identities, without encroaching on protected female only spaces,

That won't prevent sexual violence tho. As I said, perpetrators don't need permission.

If anything it will just normalise a culture of fear, suspicion & harassment of any female that doesn't appear 'feminine' enough as has already happened.

Ah this old chestnut.🙄

Licks on your door won't deter a burglar that really wants in, yet the vast majority of people have one.

No men in women's spaces, it's very simple. Even the ones in dresses. Quit trying to erode women's boundaries, it's gross.

Typicalwave · 03/09/2025 09:27

Howseitgoin · 03/09/2025 09:19

Possessing a fake vagina made of penile tissue certainly distinguishes you from female people.

You could say the same about 'fake' breasts.

Women with breast implants
Women without breast implants

Both categories are still women

TheKeatingFive · 03/09/2025 09:27

Howseitgoin · 03/09/2025 09:26

Oh yes they have.
Who? Where?

Many explicitly on twitter routinely.
JK Rowling implicitly on twitter routinely.

But we are on Mumsnet. Who here?And your point about JKR is nonsense. 'Implicitly' my arse 😂

Typicalwave · 03/09/2025 09:28

Howseitgoin · 03/09/2025 09:26

Oh yes they have.
Who? Where?

Many explicitly on twitter routinely.
JK Rowling implicitly on twitter routinely.

Screen shots please.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 03/09/2025 09:29

If anything it will just normalise a culture of fear, suspicion & harassment of any female that doesn't appear 'feminine' enough as has already happened.

[Dabs bingo card]

Meceme · 03/09/2025 09:29

Sorry, mumsnet gliched and posted on the wrong thread.

Typicalwave · 03/09/2025 09:30

AnSolas · 03/09/2025 09:23

Dear Readers

Is it wrong to say

"Please fuck right off with the utter fucking stupid fucking idea that the only fuckin way a woman can fucking be subjected to fucking sexual violence is if she is alone." ?

Or to suggest that

" if a fuckin Doctor wants to wave his fuckin penis around in a room full of women

and is making a fucking list of women who object

and is on to his fuckin Union to find out how the fuck he can fuckin force the women who dont want to be in the fuckin room to participate in his fuckin public penis waving

and whining to his fuckin Manager about a woman refusing to participate in his fuckin penis waving

and is fuckin making up fucking stories to have that woman removed from her role and removed from her profession

he is subjecting her to sexual violence not the him loosing his fuckin shit and battering her type of violence it is a fuckin calculating use of fuckin power to try to fuckin force women to participate in his funkin penis waving activity" ?

Show quote history

Not wrong at all.

Original poster
Biggadyboom · 03/09/2025 09:31

MyAmpleSheep · 03/09/2025 09:24

I've learnt a fair bit about attitudes and appreciate everyone's time.

This needs to be added to the Bingo card, as a TRA special. It’s the most passive aggressive flounce line going, right next to “HTH”.

Show quote history

You consider me a TRA ? WOW

mental

anyway must resist desire to check back and ruin flounce. must do some work. you all have someone else to argue with now.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 03/09/2025 09:33

Howseitgoin · 03/09/2025 09:23

No one has said that they are all predatory sex fetishists.
Oh yes they have.
Please explain how we can keep all the predatory sex fetishists out of women's toilets though.
You can never do that because the problem was never about 'permission' it's about being alone & vulnerable. Laws will only go so far regarding deterrence as we know for all sexual violent crimes.

This is all pure academia now...if we can grace it with that label.
The Supreme Court has established that female single sex spaces and services are for female people only. By this time next year that should have sunk in and heel draggers will have 'got with the game'......and most organisations will have moved to providing facilities that can be used by those with trans identities, without encroaching on protected female only spaces,

That won't prevent sexual violence tho. As I said, perpetrators don't need permission.

If anything it will just normalise a culture of fear, suspicion & harassment of any female that doesn't appear 'feminine' enough as has already happened.

Firstly, no one said it would prevent all harms to female people to exclude male people from single sex spaces. That might be the objective but it is understood that it will only minimise not fully prevent.

“If anything it will just normalise a culture of fear, suspicion & harassment of any female that doesn't appear 'feminine' enough as has already happened.”

As female people, some of us are already questioned sometimes in single sex spaces. This is normal and it is one of the ways female people act to protect their spaces.

And are you now hypocritically relying on the ‘anecdotes’ you posted all the while repeating ‘Isolated instance don't qualify as^ significant statistical data’?

AnSolas · 03/09/2025 09:34

Howseitgoin · 03/09/2025 08:45

Men pose a threat to women. it is impossible to know which men will pose this threat and which will not.
There is nothing uncivil in being able to recognise a man and calling him a man so as to exclude him from spaces that are designated for women.

Women also pose a threat to women as do adults to children & on & on and yet we don't feel the need to stereotype all women or adults as deluded sex pests. Consistency & framing matters.

The facts are we can never know for sure who we can be safe with. Women are significantly likely to be sexually abused in the work place & yet there's no demand that there be separate work spaces or we be constantly chaperoned. Where's the consistency here?

Fuckin fantastic

Have you forgotten to remember what thread you are on?

Here is a hint

Pictures of male demanding the right to force a woman ( who did not consent and made verbal objections ) to be in a changing room with him and
• for her to undress in front of him and
• for him to be able to undress in front of her

SirBasil · 03/09/2025 09:34

Helleofabore · 03/09/2025 09:05

“The point is not to use inflammatory generalisations that implicate entire groups.”

You continue to not understand the principles of safeguarding. Safeguarding for the purposes of publicly accessible single sex spaces does indeed work by generalisations. Hence why they are segregated by sex, which is an act of legitimate discrimination.

Show quote history

after you (and others) explaining this across many many threads for many many years, i can only conclude that it is a concept too difficult for a TRA to understand.

Tiredofwhataboutery · 03/09/2025 09:36

I’m not on twitter as I spend my time on mumsnet. I think for me though I struggle with the idea that he should be treated with kid gloves. He lied and manipulated a situation to lose a woman her livelihood because he wanted to get changed in the ladies.

I think it’s a classic case of fuck around and find out. People don’t like being lied to and the internet will reward that with a public (metaphorical) kicking.

I don’t think it’s surprising tbh. Although I do feel sorry for the wife the same way I feel sorry for the spouses of politicians who have been caught out in a lie and their lives are thrust under the microscope.

PaterPower · 03/09/2025 09:38

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 03/09/2025 09:17

Possessing a fake vagina made of penile tissue certainly distinguishes you from female people.

Show quote history

Not to mention his prostate (assuming he hasn’t had to have it removed for medical reasons), pelvis, Adam’s apple and the internal composition of his ‘breasts.’

SirBasil · 03/09/2025 09:38

Howseitgoin · 03/09/2025 09:26

Oh yes they have.
Who? Where?

Many explicitly on twitter routinely.
JK Rowling implicitly on twitter routinely.

show, don't tell. And MN isn't TwiX.

So show us your evidence from MN. C'mon, don't tell us you don't have screenshots?

Bobbymoore123 · 03/09/2025 09:39

You've all shown yourselves to be very reasonable in this discussion and not at all protesting too much over someone raising concerns of hate-speech in good faith.

I hope newcomers to this forum read this thread first and then never come back.