Where do people think the transvestites have gone?

[ItsCoolForCats]

I remember a time when a distinction was made between transexuals and transvestites, and there was a recognition that the latter category often cross dressed for fetishistic reasons.

But now everyone is just trans. So regarding those who advocate for any man who says he is trans to access women's single sex spaces, where do they think all the transvestites have gone?

There is a difference between a transvestite and a Drag Queen. A transvestite isn't trans-they're usually someone who wears 'women's clothing' privately.

Trans is someone who thinks they're not the gender that they were born as. Transvestites do not think this (as a rule).

A Drag Queen is a performance artist.

One of my friends is a very successful fulltime drag queen-he'd not be happy if I referred to him as female at all-It's something he does as a job, for a show, for entertainment.

Yes, it’s striking.

There is now an overlap between drag and trans. I think drag has been colonised by fetishists like so much else. The BBC often refers to DQs as 'she'. The one who died recently, Vivienne?, was referred to as 'she' in his obituary. In fact I think only his family used his actual name, James Lee Williams. In death he was completely overshadowed by his costume despite not being trans.

On the other hand I am not sure there is an innocent first stage where attraction to kids is a relatively harmless fetish and not a heinous paraphilia?

I can't see that either. I read an article many years ago by a German sexologist - this is purely from memory so I'm probably garbling it - but he was writing about conversion therapy, and also about the Catholic priest scandal and the once fashionable idea that you could cure paedophilia through therapy. His view was that sexual orientation might be relatively fluid in adolescence but by about 18-20 it's fixed - that was his argument against conversion therapy.

From memory, he seemed to be arguing that it makes sense to see paedophilia as a sexual orientation, but unlike homosexuality, there's no harmless way to manifest it, it just has to be suppressed.

I'm not sure, except we can agree that there are certain desires - because they're inherently harmful or relate to those unable to freely consent - that society doesn't tolerate.

Instead I believe that all medical transitioners are mentally unwell by definition, but of those some are so sexually motivated that it reaches mental ill health levels and leads to transition, whereas others are simply mentally unwell without the sexual motivation. That latter group would include gay men who believe that they should really have been born straight women.

I basically agree, and I think we can see that with young female transitioners where there usually isn't a sexual motivation, but there's invariably a mental health element.

I think therapists know there's a strong relationship between paraphilias and poor mental health, and they often feed off each other. I've only known one women who was a fetishist bordering on paraphiliac, and she differed from the archetypal male paraphiliac mostly in being aware that her obsession was unhealthy, and if she wanted real life relationships she would have to bargain down from the scenarios in her mind; many male paraphiliacs wouldn't have that self-awareness. But in this case (no trans element) she had other mental health issues.

The strange thing about cross-sex identity is that so much of our society, even health professionals, have trained themselves not to see either fetishism or mental illness as soon as the magic words are spoken. Though in many cases I think they do see it, but pretend not to.

Trans is someone who thinks they're not the gender that they were born as. Transvestites do not think this (as a rule).

What do you mean by 'trans'?

Your comment is at odds with some of the people who introduced the word 'trans' as an umbrella term which made no distinction between transvestite and transsexual.

This is what Christine Burns (of Press for Change) had to say about it:

‘Until human rights campaigners like us came along, talking about umbrella concepts, this diverse community had got along with a relatively stable lexicon for many years. There were ‘transvestites’ and ‘transsexuals’ – TVs and TS’s in the community shorthand
...
‘I cannot recall exactly how we reached a consensus inside Press for Change. It wasn’t written down in email correspondence – it arose in telephone or face to face conversations ... Somehow or other, however, we arrived at a consensus that if we maybe all used the word ‘trans’ as an umbrella term – and words like ‘transsexual’ only when we needed to be more specific’ then maybe some of that would catch on gradually.

The Trans Umbrella Is Older Than You Think – Women Speak Scotland

Yes, I was watching a YouTube video about the film of the musical Rent. The YouTuber kept calling the drag queen character, Angel, 'she' . The character was not trans. It really annoyed me.

If he used the name Vivienne in everyday life, I could understand using that. But 'she'? Is that really what he wanted?

I wonder if these drag queens pander to an audience of 'queer' (probs mostly straight) girls who like the pronoun stuff. I mean, presumably some drag queens have boyfriends, for one? I can't imagine a gay man wanting to call his boyfriend 'she' seriously (I don't mean as the occasional joke)

I remember reading an article about this where family members were quoted, referring to him as their brother, son etc. and always using male pronouns, and then in the article the BBC went on to refer to him as she. I actually thought it was disrespectful for the BBC to do that, because they were supplanting an ideological position over the family's words.

It's really disrespectful. It doesn't sound like he would have wanted that.

Pretty homophobic too : you can't be an effeminate 'he', you must be a 'she'

It's horrible. Look at this article where his ex boyfriend pays tribute to him. He calls him 'James', 'he', and 'this man'. These stupid fans and journalists are ignoring what the real man, James Lee Williams, wanted.

Judging by the letter quoted in the article, he didn't even go by Vivienne in everyday life, but James.

It seems like all the fans discussing him seem to think he WAS Vivienne, not playing a character.

Checked Wikipedia and they fudge it by using 'they'. Shameful.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-14255027/amp/Who-Viviennes-ex-husband-Inside-Drag-Race-UK-stars-whirlwind-relationship-wig-maker-David-Paul-Ludford-paid-tribute-following-shock-death.html

‘Often’? Transvestites still exist but they crossdress for a variety of reasons and it isn’t always for ‘fetish’ reasons as the far right like to promote.

So what innocent reason would a transvestite have for wearing clothes? You forget, some of us know transvestites. Never met one who wasn’t doing it for a fetish.

So what other motives are there for cross-dressing other than fetish, comedy or other entertainment?

I’ll show you mine if you show me yours. I’m so sure you have evidence of men crossdressing for innocent reasons. P s time to change your typing hand. Don’t forget to antibac the keyboard #hygienematters

I thought you knew? Perhaps you should get to know some real transvestites or crossdressers and find out yourself rather than swallowing the propaganda parroted by the Mail, Telegraph, Musk , Trump and other right wing media. I thought you knew many and all were involved because of a fetish.

There are a considerable number of transvestites who start dressing at a very early age well before puberty as small children. Are you claiming this is fetish behaviour
i suggest you stop pretending you know ‘many’ transvestites and actually meet some in person. There are many reasons for it. Please educate yourself Vance stop pretending you know many personally. You obviously do not.

I know lots. Not one does it for innocent reasons.

p s don’t forget to drink some water. Gotta replace those fluids. #hydrationmatters

There are a considerable number of transvestites who start dressing at a very early age well before puberty as small children. Are you claiming this is fetish behaviour

Of course not. This is normally described as "dressing up". Normal child behaviour. Don't sexualise children by suggesting that a little boy putting on a dress is a "transvestite".

You know lots? Yet share no evidence just like the racist who told me he knows lots if black men and black men are all violent.

Ok I get where you are coming from 😜😂

ooh comparing women to racists now. Any other tropes you want to get out of your system? I’m holding out for “hysterical” need it to get a line on my bingo card. Come on….. pleeeeaaaseeeee.

uh huh. Cool. You’re so edgy. You contribute so much to the forum. Your arguments are so compelling. I’m so glad you’re here.
I hope you antibaced your mouse as well. Don’t want germs spreading do we? And sometimes tissues just aren’t enough.

i suggest you stop pretending you know ‘many’ transvestites and actually meet some in person. There are many reasons for it.

Can you list some of these reasons?

namelessnelly- awwww bless you dear. When your anti trans believes are challenged with facts and evidence you start lashing out like a spoilt little child.

I challenge bigotry including transphobia dear. If that upsets you and my evidence on shootings it’s tough.

You seem to be getting angrier and angrier dear. Maybe it’s you that needs the tissues?

Bless 😂🤡😜

I have been nothing but nice. I’ve given you lots of useful self care tips and good advice. I even expressed sympathy for your situation. Maybe you need to meet more people IRL to help with your recognition of emotions. And your paranoia.