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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

some parallels

604 replies

Manfreglory · 16/08/2025 18:56

I've been teasing out this idea, that transphobia and xenophobia have much in common.

  • both rest on 'you're not from here; your culture is different; you can't know what it is to have grown up 'over here'/had period pains/gone through labour.
  • both reject difference or change in favour of sameness or stasis. 'You look and talk and think differently/you underwent a journey to get here/I can't fully relate to you'.
  • both rest not just on culture but on biology: 'Your genes are different than mine/your genotype for phenotype A, B or C aren't identical to mine'.
  • both are territorial: 'i sweated blood as a member of this sex/to make it in this society - who are you to come here and demand a seat at the table'?
  • both are suspicious of the reasons for transformation. 'You just want the perks of being female; you just want to look up our skirts in the toilet; you just migrated here from Guatemala for financial stability.'
  • both demonize, aggressively overstating the chance that the person has or will commit a crime. (Migrants: no need to give examples, just read the news. Trans people: 'you just want access to 'our spaces'' (i.e. the spaces where women/cis women enjoy their privacy from all men, cis or trans) so you can assault us'.
  • both minimize or even deny, the need for the transition: 'No child is born trans/those parents were homophobic as the kid was just gay/trans women are men with their dicks lopped off/people should stay in their home country and migration is too dangerous'.
  • both hysterically fear that the trans person/migrant will corrupt innocents: 'they will indoctrinate children in school/they will spread religious fundamentalism'.

Gender critical women: ask yourself if you've been radicalized into the new right.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Igneococcus · 16/08/2025 21:38

Waitwhat23 · 16/08/2025 21:37

I don't want BIG words, I want fancy as hell words. My kingdom for a choice of fonts!

Oh god, I bet Boiled knows all the fancy fonts too.

mintydoggyv · 16/08/2025 21:38

Um interesting , what ever we all say in law , what we think , there has always been differences and men and women

Boiledbeetle · 16/08/2025 21:39

@Namelessnelly just for you

“The Chrysalis of Identity” — A Beetle’s Interpretative Dance

Scene:

A softly lit forest clearing at dusk. Fireflies pulse like stage lights. A single beetle, clad in shimmering iridescent wing-capes and delicate antennae extensions, steps onto a mossy platform. The audience: a circle of attentive woodland creatures, seated on toadstools and curled-up leaves.


Act I: Biological Blueprint
🎵 Music: Rhythmic, pulsing drumbeats echoing heartbeat-like patterns.

  • The beetle begins with rigid, mechanical movements—sharp pivots, symmetrical leg extensions, and synchronized wing flutters.
  • Each motion mimics chromosomes locking into place, the choreography spelling out “XX” and “XY” with antennae gestures.
  • A brief duet with a second beetle illustrates reproductive anatomy—mirrored movements, then divergence.

🗣️ Narration (in pheromone bursts):

“Sex is the blueprint—assigned at birth, rooted in biology.”


Act II: The Fluid Flourish
🎵 Music: Ethereal strings and ambient tones, like wind through reeds.

  • The beetle sheds its rigid form, unfurling wing-capes dyed in shifting hues—blue, pink, gold, and green.
  • Movements become flowing, expressive: spirals, twirls, and pauses that linger like questions.
  • It mimics the act of choosing garments, names, pronouns—each gesture a declaration of self.
  • The beetle dances with a mirrored version of itself, now adorned differently, showing that identity can evolve.

🗣️ Narration (in scent trails):

“Gender is the dance—performed, felt, expressed. Not fixed, but fluid.”


Act III: Harmony and Dissonance
🎵 Music: A blend of the previous themes—biological beats and expressive melodies intertwine.

  • The beetle now moves between both styles, sometimes rigid, sometimes fluid.
  • It encounters other beetles—some who match its rhythm, others who challenge it.
  • Together, they form a kaleidoscope of movement, each honoring their own truth.

🗣️ Final message (etched in dew on a leaf):

“Understanding blooms when we let the dance unfold.”


some parallels
some parallels
some parallels
some parallels
some parallels
bitingcat · 16/08/2025 21:39

What a load of absolute bolllocks

Manfreglory · 16/08/2025 21:40

myplace · 16/08/2025 21:36

Right, but the spaces women are trying to protect are single sex, not gender. You can be as gendery as you like, crack on. But don’t invade the spaces reserved for the other sex- bathrooms, prisons, sports, competitions …

Returning to your xenophobia analogy, I would suggest it’s more aligned with the colonisation of the US. A bunch of white blokes see a space and move in on it. The indigenous people get ever smaller spaces reserved for them. Then some of the colonists start eyeing up the reservations, how calm it seems, how the people there seem to have qualities and traditions that colonists lack. So they move in, stick some feathers in their hair and claim they too are indigenous.

but *they never will be indigenous!! because they cannot transition culture! they can only ever pretend! and presumably no indigenous person can ever live OFF the reservation either! because they can never live a non indigenous lifestyle!**. Progressive! Nuanced! I gasp at your perspicacity!

OP posts:
JazzyJelly · 16/08/2025 21:40

Manfreglory · 16/08/2025 21:11

no more sad than you want to be and not wanting them to be.

Two Ibuprofen and a pint of water, OP

Manfreglory · 16/08/2025 21:41

Boiledbeetle · 16/08/2025 21:39

@Namelessnelly just for you

“The Chrysalis of Identity” — A Beetle’s Interpretative Dance

Scene:

A softly lit forest clearing at dusk. Fireflies pulse like stage lights. A single beetle, clad in shimmering iridescent wing-capes and delicate antennae extensions, steps onto a mossy platform. The audience: a circle of attentive woodland creatures, seated on toadstools and curled-up leaves.


Act I: Biological Blueprint
🎵 Music: Rhythmic, pulsing drumbeats echoing heartbeat-like patterns.

  • The beetle begins with rigid, mechanical movements—sharp pivots, symmetrical leg extensions, and synchronized wing flutters.
  • Each motion mimics chromosomes locking into place, the choreography spelling out “XX” and “XY” with antennae gestures.
  • A brief duet with a second beetle illustrates reproductive anatomy—mirrored movements, then divergence.

🗣️ Narration (in pheromone bursts):

“Sex is the blueprint—assigned at birth, rooted in biology.”


Act II: The Fluid Flourish
🎵 Music: Ethereal strings and ambient tones, like wind through reeds.

  • The beetle sheds its rigid form, unfurling wing-capes dyed in shifting hues—blue, pink, gold, and green.
  • Movements become flowing, expressive: spirals, twirls, and pauses that linger like questions.
  • It mimics the act of choosing garments, names, pronouns—each gesture a declaration of self.
  • The beetle dances with a mirrored version of itself, now adorned differently, showing that identity can evolve.

🗣️ Narration (in scent trails):

“Gender is the dance—performed, felt, expressed. Not fixed, but fluid.”


Act III: Harmony and Dissonance
🎵 Music: A blend of the previous themes—biological beats and expressive melodies intertwine.

  • The beetle now moves between both styles, sometimes rigid, sometimes fluid.
  • It encounters other beetles—some who match its rhythm, others who challenge it.
  • Together, they form a kaleidoscope of movement, each honoring their own truth.

🗣️ Final message (etched in dew on a leaf):

“Understanding blooms when we let the dance unfold.”


you sound like a real delight!

OP posts:
BernardBlacksMolluscs · 16/08/2025 21:42

Manfreglory · 16/08/2025 21:40

but *they never will be indigenous!! because they cannot transition culture! they can only ever pretend! and presumably no indigenous person can ever live OFF the reservation either! because they can never live a non indigenous lifestyle!**. Progressive! Nuanced! I gasp at your perspicacity!

someone's having a tricky evening

I've got good news though. I've crafted a gender validation stamp from half a potato and am happy to stamp your gender as validated if you'd like to present it <dons official gender validation hat>

Manfreglory · 16/08/2025 21:44

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 16/08/2025 21:42

someone's having a tricky evening

I've got good news though. I've crafted a gender validation stamp from half a potato and am happy to stamp your gender as validated if you'd like to present it <dons official gender validation hat>

that should do it! i love the potato part.

OP posts:
Boiledbeetle · 16/08/2025 21:44

Waitwhat23 · 16/08/2025 21:37

I don't want BIG words, I want fancy as hell words. My kingdom for a choice of fonts!

⩓ Ԟ𝕚ℼ𝕘ⅆ𝕠⩕ ☉𝕗 𝕗☉𝕟╬𝕤

GreyPearlSatin · 16/08/2025 21:44

Sweetie, I am a gender apostate. Or in your parlance "a (TE)RF¨. So kindly take your new age religion and fuck off.

myplace · 16/08/2025 21:46

Bernard that’s so kind of you! You might need to repeat the offer tomorrow- when he sobers up a recovers from the hangover he’ll have forgotten.

Boiledbeetle · 16/08/2025 21:46

Manfreglory · 16/08/2025 21:41

you sound like a real delight!

Aw shucks. You flatter me.

Waitwhat23 · 16/08/2025 21:46

Beetle, your dance sounds truly beautiful. Would melt a stone heart.

My interpretive dancing would be much more like the scene in 'She's All That' where they shout random words and flail their arms.

RedNine · 16/08/2025 21:48

Boiledbeetle · 16/08/2025 21:44

⩓ Ԟ𝕚ℼ𝕘ⅆ𝕠⩕ ☉𝕗 𝕗☉𝕟╬𝕤

Well now I am well jelly. Huff!

(but I can still do ye olde bigly letters so all not lost)

Boiledbeetle · 16/08/2025 21:48

Waitwhat23 · 16/08/2025 21:46

Beetle, your dance sounds truly beautiful. Would melt a stone heart.

My interpretive dancing would be much more like the scene in 'She's All That' where they shout random words and flail their arms.

The real life version of me would be stood there with my arms folded going "Nope! I'm not doing that!"

Waitwhat23 · 16/08/2025 21:51

Boiledbeetle · 16/08/2025 21:44

⩓ Ԟ𝕚ℼ𝕘ⅆ𝕠⩕ ☉𝕗 𝕗☉𝕟╬𝕤

white horse GIF

Ah Beetle, you always come through.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 16/08/2025 21:53

Manfreglory · 16/08/2025 21:40

but *they never will be indigenous!! because they cannot transition culture! they can only ever pretend! and presumably no indigenous person can ever live OFF the reservation either! because they can never live a non indigenous lifestyle!**. Progressive! Nuanced! I gasp at your perspicacity!

to take this seriously for a moment (something I will doubtless come to regret), it's interesting that the OP missed the oppressor / oppressed relationship in the analogy, and by extension in the real life situation of men role playing as women.

These men really can't see it can they?

Namelessnelly · 16/08/2025 21:57

Boiledbeetle · 16/08/2025 21:39

@Namelessnelly just for you

“The Chrysalis of Identity” — A Beetle’s Interpretative Dance

Scene:

A softly lit forest clearing at dusk. Fireflies pulse like stage lights. A single beetle, clad in shimmering iridescent wing-capes and delicate antennae extensions, steps onto a mossy platform. The audience: a circle of attentive woodland creatures, seated on toadstools and curled-up leaves.


Act I: Biological Blueprint
🎵 Music: Rhythmic, pulsing drumbeats echoing heartbeat-like patterns.

  • The beetle begins with rigid, mechanical movements—sharp pivots, symmetrical leg extensions, and synchronized wing flutters.
  • Each motion mimics chromosomes locking into place, the choreography spelling out “XX” and “XY” with antennae gestures.
  • A brief duet with a second beetle illustrates reproductive anatomy—mirrored movements, then divergence.

🗣️ Narration (in pheromone bursts):

“Sex is the blueprint—assigned at birth, rooted in biology.”


Act II: The Fluid Flourish
🎵 Music: Ethereal strings and ambient tones, like wind through reeds.

  • The beetle sheds its rigid form, unfurling wing-capes dyed in shifting hues—blue, pink, gold, and green.
  • Movements become flowing, expressive: spirals, twirls, and pauses that linger like questions.
  • It mimics the act of choosing garments, names, pronouns—each gesture a declaration of self.
  • The beetle dances with a mirrored version of itself, now adorned differently, showing that identity can evolve.

🗣️ Narration (in scent trails):

“Gender is the dance—performed, felt, expressed. Not fixed, but fluid.”


Act III: Harmony and Dissonance
🎵 Music: A blend of the previous themes—biological beats and expressive melodies intertwine.

  • The beetle now moves between both styles, sometimes rigid, sometimes fluid.
  • It encounters other beetles—some who match its rhythm, others who challenge it.
  • Together, they form a kaleidoscope of movement, each honoring their own truth.

🗣️ Final message (etched in dew on a leaf):

“Understanding blooms when we let the dance unfold.”


And that’s why you’re awesome!

Imperativvv · 16/08/2025 22:01

Love a bit of North American cultural imperialism of a Saturday night.

JanesLittleGirl · 16/08/2025 22:03

𝓣𝓱𝓲𝓼 𝓲𝓼 𝓽𝓱𝓻𝓮𝓪𝓭 𝓲𝓼 𝓶𝓸𝓻𝓮 𝓼𝓾𝓻𝓻𝓮𝓪𝓵 𝓽𝓱𝓪𝓷 𝓪𝓷𝔂𝓽𝓱𝓲𝓷𝓰 𝓟𝓲𝓬𝓪𝓼𝓼𝓸 𝓬𝓸𝓾𝓵𝓭 𝓱𝓪𝓿𝓮 𝓲𝓶𝓪𝓰𝓲𝓷𝓮𝓭 𝓪𝓷𝓭 𝓽𝓮𝔁𝓽 𝓯𝓸𝓻𝓶𝓪𝓽𝓼 𝓪𝓻𝓮 𝓪𝓵𝓵 𝓲𝓷 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓶𝓲𝓷𝓭'𝓼 𝓮𝔂𝓮.

myplace · 16/08/2025 22:03

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 16/08/2025 21:53

to take this seriously for a moment (something I will doubtless come to regret), it's interesting that the OP missed the oppressor / oppressed relationship in the analogy, and by extension in the real life situation of men role playing as women.

These men really can't see it can they?

Indeed. Women can leave the reservation but they carry with them all it’s limitations.

Read an infuriating article about the lactation room in a company being controlled and rationed rather than freely available. Yes you can come back to work, but make up the time you spend pumping in this cupboard that we’ll unlock at set hours whether you can get there or not.

itsachickeninnit · 16/08/2025 22:05

CassOle · 16/08/2025 18:59

What the fuck are you on about?

Mammals can't change sex. The end.

As usual, first post nails it.

Catiette · 16/08/2025 22:12

I quite enjoyed this one - it's so far above the usual quality of argument we see here, and I think that deserves some acknowledgement. It made me think, at least.

both rest on 'you're not from here; your culture is different; you can't know what it is to have grown up 'over here'/had period pains/gone through labour.

The more precise analogy here would be a (let's say) second-generation immigrant not only asserting a British identity, but also saying their ancestry itself was British, and that that ancestry is what defines quintessential Britishness.

both reject difference or change in favour of sameness or stasis. 'You look and talk and think differently/you underwent a journey to get here/I can't fully relate to you'.

Most of your examples above as written represent less a rejection of difference than an honest acknowledgement of it (that's not to say they'd be appropriate to voice in most contexts). But the key question is, therefore, where such thoughts lead. To take the immigrant analogy: do these thoughts present a moral imperative to embrace and learn from multiculturalism, or a xenophobic "rejection" of it? This question is one of re/de-constructing a national identity. In contrast, women are being asked to 1) deny their own reality on an individual level (to accept that "woman" is internal and subjective, not physical and objective with the occasional outlier) and 2) surrender their legal protections and political voice (both of which exist only in contradistinction to men). Neither 1) not 2) is analogous to xenophobia. Lastly, whereas our country has always been a delicious melting pot of different invaders and visitors imperceptibly shaping whatever indeterminate mishmash British culture now is... women have always been female. Until now.

both rest not just on culture but on biology: 'Your genes are different than mine/your genotype for phenotype A, B or C aren't identical to mine'.

I'd actually challenge this and say that "racism" is a better description of this than "xenophobia". Racism - by definition - is universally condemned as empty prejudice, because of the absence of meaningful difference - indeed, race itself is, arguably, constructed to a significant degree. In contrast, in our case, there is difference. We'd prefer not to highlight it and obsess about genes, of course, but posts like yours regrettably force us to.

both are territorial: 'i sweated blood as a member of this sex/to make it in this society - who are you to come here and demand a seat at the table'?

And this is where that genetic difference becomes pertinent. Because women's genetic difference has led to exactly the kind of prejudiced assumptions that racism upholds: "They're inferior, they're best suited to physical 'labour' (wherever on the plantation or through reproduction), they shouldn't vote or own property" etc. Feminists spent the last century arguing that our genes make us different but equal. In the early 1900s, their challenge was to persuade society of their equality. We got there in some respects (the vote - only held for a precious, pathetic 100 years - and an unqualified right to mortgages etc. - enjoyed for about 50!) But the fight for "equality" is far from won (just read "Invisible Women"). What better counter-attack on women's equality than to deny their difference in the first place, so they can no longer distinguish themselves to fight for it? Incredibly, it seems that we're back to the "different but equal" battle of last century - but fighting it on both fronts now, reduced to defending our own "difference" even as we seek equality despite it. A patriarchal masterstroke, some may say.

both are suspicious of the reasons for transformation. 'You just want the perks of being female; you just want to look up our skirts in the toilet; you just migrated here from Guatemala for financial stability.'

Here, you rely on over-generalisation. There's a big difference between your reductive examples of damning prejudice above, and what feminists are typically (note: there's always outliers) saying, which is more akin to, "I worry that some Guatemalans may be coming over who aren't remotely in financial need," and which also often includes, "I'm really concerned about the impact that may be having on those Guatemalans who really do need our support," (AKA trans-identifying teens, the deeply dysphoric transsexual etc.)

both demonize, aggressively overstating the chance that the person has or will commit a crime. (Migrants: no need to give examples, just read the news. Trans people: 'you just want access to 'our spaces'' (i.e. the spaces where women/cis women enjoy their privacy from all men, cis or trans) so you can assault us'.

Again we see here the conveniently reductive phrasing that I'm sure matches some xenophobes, but doesn't actually reflect what the majority of GC feminists are saying. But more importantly, the stats don't lie: males 1) commit 98% of sexual crime, using 2) their up to 150% greater physical power. I bloody hope you're not saying the same about Guatemalan immigrants. 1) would be downright racist, and 2) the plot of a very curious superhero movie indeed.

both minimize or even deny, the need for the transition: 'No child is born trans/those parents were homophobic as the kid was just gay/trans women are men with their dicks lopped off/people should stay in their home country and migration is too dangerous'.

This one's so arbitrary as an analogy that I think my favourite response is PP's kid asking about why there's no tackling in tennis: there's rather too much to unpick. Certainly it's another false equivalency. But to take just one element... I think there's an interesting "tell" here in your "migration is too dangerous" - AKA, the feminist argument that remaining in your original gender may be more beneficial than transitioning. The key point here is that, whereas the xenophobic dismissal of migration rarely comes with concerted efforts by the xenophobe to improve the lot of Guatemalans, many feminists are fighting tooth and claw to ensure vulnerable children have the necessary provision to prevent them feeling compelled to undergo brutal and often life-limiting surgeries, and to have access to a better life through other means.

both hysterically fear that the trans person/migrant will corrupt innocents: 'they will indoctrinate children in school/they will spread religious fundamentalism'.

Has there been a 4000% percentage increase (ref. the Tavistock data) in American (I assume you're in the US) children taking dangerous journeys, with a significant proportion suffering lasting physical harm as a result? Are adults promulgating the belief through school, charitable campaigns and televised interviews that, if they don't do this, they may well commit suicide?

I mean, that would be horrifying, right?

Right?!

Edited for typos.

SidewaysOtter · 16/08/2025 22:12

Schools not back yet, then?

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