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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

some parallels

604 replies

Manfreglory · 16/08/2025 18:56

I've been teasing out this idea, that transphobia and xenophobia have much in common.

  • both rest on 'you're not from here; your culture is different; you can't know what it is to have grown up 'over here'/had period pains/gone through labour.
  • both reject difference or change in favour of sameness or stasis. 'You look and talk and think differently/you underwent a journey to get here/I can't fully relate to you'.
  • both rest not just on culture but on biology: 'Your genes are different than mine/your genotype for phenotype A, B or C aren't identical to mine'.
  • both are territorial: 'i sweated blood as a member of this sex/to make it in this society - who are you to come here and demand a seat at the table'?
  • both are suspicious of the reasons for transformation. 'You just want the perks of being female; you just want to look up our skirts in the toilet; you just migrated here from Guatemala for financial stability.'
  • both demonize, aggressively overstating the chance that the person has or will commit a crime. (Migrants: no need to give examples, just read the news. Trans people: 'you just want access to 'our spaces'' (i.e. the spaces where women/cis women enjoy their privacy from all men, cis or trans) so you can assault us'.
  • both minimize or even deny, the need for the transition: 'No child is born trans/those parents were homophobic as the kid was just gay/trans women are men with their dicks lopped off/people should stay in their home country and migration is too dangerous'.
  • both hysterically fear that the trans person/migrant will corrupt innocents: 'they will indoctrinate children in school/they will spread religious fundamentalism'.

Gender critical women: ask yourself if you've been radicalized into the new right.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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FranticFrankie · 16/08/2025 22:15

@Boiledbeetle I envy your slender legs
And your fonts

Helleofabore · 16/08/2025 22:18

Manfreglory · 16/08/2025 21:01

anytime someone says 'it's a universal human belief', you know what's coming next is going to be pretty stupid.

Well, of course it is not grounded in reality to think a person can change sex. It is also not grounded in reality to believe that a person is the sex they say they are when they are materially the opposite sex. That requires the support of philosophical theory over biological science.

Thelnebriati · 16/08/2025 22:22

both reject difference or change in favour of sameness or stasis.

No they don't. Men imposing their will on women is not a legitimate human rights movement and its not new.

Women's bodies have not changed, our reasons for needing single sex facilities still exist, our vulnerabilities are the same as ever. You just resent us having anything for ourselves.

Defiantly41 · 16/08/2025 22:24

Odfod

Catiette · 16/08/2025 22:25

Helleofabore · 16/08/2025 22:18

Well, of course it is not grounded in reality to think a person can change sex. It is also not grounded in reality to believe that a person is the sex they say they are when they are materially the opposite sex. That requires the support of philosophical theory over biological science.

Manfreglory is quite right that any such generalisation about beliefs is usually naive. The irony is, though, that we'd really rather not refer to it as a belief, but rather a fact: it is a universal fact that humans cannot change sex. Unfortunately, the extent of the capture is such that the right to state this fact has been protected in law in the most practical way possible - as expression of a belief - while the cuckoo that is "humans can change sex" now sometimes sits under the heading "fact". Subsequently followed by 1 to 100+ pages of academic sleight of hand which basically comes down to an unconvincing, "Everything's too complex, definitions are reductive and redundant, and some modifications are possible." And that's as may be - tables can have 5 legs, and humans 11 fingers, but we still need the words "table" and "human" for society to function.

Helleofabore · 16/08/2025 22:27

Manfreglory · 16/08/2025 21:35

Not sure where you've been hanging out but in my (pretty trans friendly) world I'm seeing a few people per week who appear they could be trans (many more where you can't tell). hardly a seething mass of tourists and illegal immigrants to cisworld. because it turns out that MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT TRANS! they are a MINORITY!

If you cannot identify the sex of people you see and interact with correctly, please don’t assume that is the norm. Most female people can correctly identify the sex of male people through observation and interaction. Please don’t assume your inability is the norm.

Merrymouse · 16/08/2025 22:28

I will never not be surprised that somebody can post on a site called ‘Mumsnet’, containing pages and pages of information relating to the consequences of being a female and reproducing, and maintain the belief that sex is somehow irrelevant to women’s rights.

It requires almost heroic levels of wilful blindness.

Catiette · 16/08/2025 22:32

But doesn't that wilful blindness oh so neatly demonstrate the issue, Merry?

Helleofabore · 16/08/2025 22:34

Catiette · 16/08/2025 22:25

Manfreglory is quite right that any such generalisation about beliefs is usually naive. The irony is, though, that we'd really rather not refer to it as a belief, but rather a fact: it is a universal fact that humans cannot change sex. Unfortunately, the extent of the capture is such that the right to state this fact has been protected in law in the most practical way possible - as expression of a belief - while the cuckoo that is "humans can change sex" now sometimes sits under the heading "fact". Subsequently followed by 1 to 100+ pages of academic sleight of hand which basically comes down to an unconvincing, "Everything's too complex, definitions are reductive and redundant, and some modifications are possible." And that's as may be - tables can have 5 legs, and humans 11 fingers, but we still need the words "table" and "human" for society to function.

Edited

Yes.

sadly some people now believe that facts are merely beliefs. However, some people really do go to great effort to twist philosophical theory to make their beliefs that have no basis in material reality into something that they consider plausible, don’t they?

Too often with the proviso that ‘we just don’t know everything yet’, appealing to some people’s need to believe in future discoveries to support the destabilisation of established science understand for centuries.

DialSquare · 16/08/2025 22:35

roseyposey · 16/08/2025 19:49

Are you in the States? Nobody from Guatemala “migrates” to the UK “for financial stability”. Nothing else in your OP makes sense either.

We wouldn’t use a z in radicalised either.

Catiette · 16/08/2025 22:39

Manfreglory · 16/08/2025 21:28

and they get their gender validated...how?

Catching up and just got to this. Interesting. You don't often see such a clear admission that the priority isn't safety but validation.

Tootingbec · 16/08/2025 22:40

Christ on a bike this thread is doing my head in with the number of “gotcha’s” @Manfreglory is attempting.

As many others have explained, banging on about “gender” is pointless because none of us on this board believe in this thing called “gender”. Anymore than an atheist believes in God.

I don’t think I am a woman or feel like a woman or identify as a woman.

I AM a woman - an adult human female who is of the female sex which is written into every fibre of my biological body. And men can no more become women than I can become a clownfish.

And no, the biology is not “more complicated” or on a spectrum.

I do not have to apologise for believing that or be fearful of saying that. Or fret about being seen as transphobic or xenophobic or whatever your analogy is. You crack on with your gender woo woo bollocks as much as you like mate. I will no more listen to it than I would an evangelical preacher banging on about Satan.

Right - that’s me done!

Helleofabore · 16/08/2025 22:44

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 16/08/2025 21:42

someone's having a tricky evening

I've got good news though. I've crafted a gender validation stamp from half a potato and am happy to stamp your gender as validated if you'd like to present it <dons official gender validation hat>

Does this help?

𝔾𝕖𝕟𝕕𝕖𝕣: 𝕍𝔸𝕃𝕀𝔻𝔸𝕋𝔼𝔻

or this?

🅶🅴🅽🅳🅴🆁: 🆅🅰🅻🅸🅳🅰🆃🅴🅳

PersonIrresponsible · 16/08/2025 22:46

"Gender critical women: ask yourself if you've been radicalized into the new right."

The clue is in the word "phobia"....and your premise compares an irrational fear of one group with an irrational fear of another group of the same class.

So fucking what! If you compare two fruits, you are still the oddball fruit loop who doesn't belong.

That's how I answered myself into the always right.

Question back at ya:

Why do you exclude men? Are they not capable of answering questions? Can they not be gender-critical? Have they all become women in this far-wrong Ideology?

#genderincurious.

Nachoinseachthu · 16/08/2025 22:47

Manfreglory · 16/08/2025 21:35

Not sure where you've been hanging out but in my (pretty trans friendly) world I'm seeing a few people per week who appear they could be trans (many more where you can't tell). hardly a seething mass of tourists and illegal immigrants to cisworld. because it turns out that MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT TRANS! they are a MINORITY!

Did you not read the bit where I said that the tourists and illegal immigrants are within ‘the tiny trans community’? - ie they are (growing) subsets within a small subset.

But those subsets have destroyed the previous social contract that existed for trans people, which have always and will always exist, but who have never and will never be able to actually change the sex encoded within every cell of their body.

MarieDeGournay · 16/08/2025 22:48

Interesting thread title!
Some parallels: Train tracks? Kerbs on opposite sides of a street? Two lines in the same plane that are at equal distance from each other and never meet?

Catiette · 16/08/2025 22:50

Tootingbec · 16/08/2025 22:40

Christ on a bike this thread is doing my head in with the number of “gotcha’s” @Manfreglory is attempting.

As many others have explained, banging on about “gender” is pointless because none of us on this board believe in this thing called “gender”. Anymore than an atheist believes in God.

I don’t think I am a woman or feel like a woman or identify as a woman.

I AM a woman - an adult human female who is of the female sex which is written into every fibre of my biological body. And men can no more become women than I can become a clownfish.

And no, the biology is not “more complicated” or on a spectrum.

I do not have to apologise for believing that or be fearful of saying that. Or fret about being seen as transphobic or xenophobic or whatever your analogy is. You crack on with your gender woo woo bollocks as much as you like mate. I will no more listen to it than I would an evangelical preacher banging on about Satan.

Right - that’s me done!

Yep, and that not believing in universal gender identity is where the analogy really falls down.

These immigrants aren't trying to integrate, they're aiming to assimilate. To impose their values and beliefs on the native population.

That's why colonialism comes far closer.

Britinme · 16/08/2025 22:53

Catiette · 16/08/2025 22:12

I quite enjoyed this one - it's so far above the usual quality of argument we see here, and I think that deserves some acknowledgement. It made me think, at least.

both rest on 'you're not from here; your culture is different; you can't know what it is to have grown up 'over here'/had period pains/gone through labour.

The more precise analogy here would be a (let's say) second-generation immigrant not only asserting a British identity, but also saying their ancestry itself was British, and that that ancestry is what defines quintessential Britishness.

both reject difference or change in favour of sameness or stasis. 'You look and talk and think differently/you underwent a journey to get here/I can't fully relate to you'.

Most of your examples above as written represent less a rejection of difference than an honest acknowledgement of it (that's not to say they'd be appropriate to voice in most contexts). But the key question is, therefore, where such thoughts lead. To take the immigrant analogy: do these thoughts present a moral imperative to embrace and learn from multiculturalism, or a xenophobic "rejection" of it? This question is one of re/de-constructing a national identity. In contrast, women are being asked to 1) deny their own reality on an individual level (to accept that "woman" is internal and subjective, not physical and objective with the occasional outlier) and 2) surrender their legal protections and political voice (both of which exist only in contradistinction to men). Neither 1) not 2) is analogous to xenophobia. Lastly, whereas our country has always been a delicious melting pot of different invaders and visitors imperceptibly shaping whatever indeterminate mishmash British culture now is... women have always been female. Until now.

both rest not just on culture but on biology: 'Your genes are different than mine/your genotype for phenotype A, B or C aren't identical to mine'.

I'd actually challenge this and say that "racism" is a better description of this than "xenophobia". Racism - by definition - is universally condemned as empty prejudice, because of the absence of meaningful difference - indeed, race itself is, arguably, constructed to a significant degree. In contrast, in our case, there is difference. We'd prefer not to highlight it and obsess about genes, of course, but posts like yours regrettably force us to.

both are territorial: 'i sweated blood as a member of this sex/to make it in this society - who are you to come here and demand a seat at the table'?

And this is where that genetic difference becomes pertinent. Because women's genetic difference has led to exactly the kind of prejudiced assumptions that racism upholds: "They're inferior, they're best suited to physical 'labour' (wherever on the plantation or through reproduction), they shouldn't vote or own property" etc. Feminists spent the last century arguing that our genes make us different but equal. In the early 1900s, their challenge was to persuade society of their equality. We got there in some respects (the vote - only held for a precious, pathetic 100 years - and an unqualified right to mortgages etc. - enjoyed for about 50!) But the fight for "equality" is far from won (just read "Invisible Women"). What better counter-attack on women's equality than to deny their difference in the first place, so they can no longer distinguish themselves to fight for it? Incredibly, it seems that we're back to the "different but equal" battle of last century - but fighting it on both fronts now, reduced to defending our own "difference" even as we seek equality despite it. A patriarchal masterstroke, some may say.

both are suspicious of the reasons for transformation. 'You just want the perks of being female; you just want to look up our skirts in the toilet; you just migrated here from Guatemala for financial stability.'

Here, you rely on over-generalisation. There's a big difference between your reductive examples of damning prejudice above, and what feminists are typically (note: there's always outliers) saying, which is more akin to, "I worry that some Guatemalans may be coming over who aren't remotely in financial need," and which also often includes, "I'm really concerned about the impact that may be having on those Guatemalans who really do need our support," (AKA trans-identifying teens, the deeply dysphoric transsexual etc.)

both demonize, aggressively overstating the chance that the person has or will commit a crime. (Migrants: no need to give examples, just read the news. Trans people: 'you just want access to 'our spaces'' (i.e. the spaces where women/cis women enjoy their privacy from all men, cis or trans) so you can assault us'.

Again we see here the conveniently reductive phrasing that I'm sure matches some xenophobes, but doesn't actually reflect what the majority of GC feminists are saying. But more importantly, the stats don't lie: males 1) commit 98% of sexual crime, using 2) their up to 150% greater physical power. I bloody hope you're not saying the same about Guatemalan immigrants. 1) would be downright racist, and 2) the plot of a very curious superhero movie indeed.

both minimize or even deny, the need for the transition: 'No child is born trans/those parents were homophobic as the kid was just gay/trans women are men with their dicks lopped off/people should stay in their home country and migration is too dangerous'.

This one's so arbitrary as an analogy that I think my favourite response is PP's kid asking about why there's no tackling in tennis: there's rather too much to unpick. Certainly it's another false equivalency. But to take just one element... I think there's an interesting "tell" here in your "migration is too dangerous" - AKA, the feminist argument that remaining in your original gender may be more beneficial than transitioning. The key point here is that, whereas the xenophobic dismissal of migration rarely comes with concerted efforts by the xenophobe to improve the lot of Guatemalans, many feminists are fighting tooth and claw to ensure vulnerable children have the necessary provision to prevent them feeling compelled to undergo brutal and often life-limiting surgeries, and to have access to a better life through other means.

both hysterically fear that the trans person/migrant will corrupt innocents: 'they will indoctrinate children in school/they will spread religious fundamentalism'.

Has there been a 4000% percentage increase (ref. the Tavistock data) in American (I assume you're in the US) children taking dangerous journeys, with a significant proportion suffering lasting physical harm as a result? Are adults promulgating the belief through school, charitable campaigns and televised interviews that, if they don't do this, they may well commit suicide?

I mean, that would be horrifying, right?

Right?!

Edited for typos.

Edited

I'm quoting this because it is a thing of beauty and deserves a second read. I will be very interested to see if @Manfreglory gives it the detailed attention and debate it deserves.

Catiette · 16/08/2025 22:54

Nachoinseachthu · 16/08/2025 22:47

Did you not read the bit where I said that the tourists and illegal immigrants are within ‘the tiny trans community’? - ie they are (growing) subsets within a small subset.

But those subsets have destroyed the previous social contract that existed for trans people, which have always and will always exist, but who have never and will never be able to actually change the sex encoded within every cell of their body.

It was clear and really quite clever as a response.

I've found it interesting to note that Manfreglory's responses to the posts that do really engage with the immigrant analogy tend to avoid a corresponding level of engagement with the counter-arguments made.

MurkyWeather · 16/08/2025 22:56

MarieDeGournay · 16/08/2025 22:48

Interesting thread title!
Some parallels: Train tracks? Kerbs on opposite sides of a street? Two lines in the same plane that are at equal distance from each other and never meet?

Of course the existence or not of parallels will depend on geometry; that is, whether the Earth is flat or spherical

Catiette · 16/08/2025 22:59

MurkyWeather · 16/08/2025 22:56

Of course the existence or not of parallels will depend on geometry; that is, whether the Earth is flat or spherical

Oh, I wish I could do pithy.

Just perfect - says it all.

Catiette · 16/08/2025 22:59

(to be uncharacteristically pithy!)

MurkyWeather · 16/08/2025 23:00

Catiette · 16/08/2025 22:59

Oh, I wish I could do pithy.

Just perfect - says it all.

Ha, just wait until you read what I was about to post:

@Catiette has nailed it. I honestly feel that there is no more to add
😍

Alucard55 · 16/08/2025 23:02

Manfreglory · 16/08/2025 21:03

ah, all those trans women banging down the doors in the ladies? is that what you mean? if your idea of a 'woman's space' is a...toilet....how sad is that?

Toilets are the thin end of the wedge. To what extent do you think we should treat men as women in law and society?

Haulage · 16/08/2025 23:04

Tootingbec · 16/08/2025 22:40

Christ on a bike this thread is doing my head in with the number of “gotcha’s” @Manfreglory is attempting.

As many others have explained, banging on about “gender” is pointless because none of us on this board believe in this thing called “gender”. Anymore than an atheist believes in God.

I don’t think I am a woman or feel like a woman or identify as a woman.

I AM a woman - an adult human female who is of the female sex which is written into every fibre of my biological body. And men can no more become women than I can become a clownfish.

And no, the biology is not “more complicated” or on a spectrum.

I do not have to apologise for believing that or be fearful of saying that. Or fret about being seen as transphobic or xenophobic or whatever your analogy is. You crack on with your gender woo woo bollocks as much as you like mate. I will no more listen to it than I would an evangelical preacher banging on about Satan.

Right - that’s me done!

It’s like when you get those people in the town centre shouting on about how important [whatever lunatic belief they hold] is and everyone else just walks on by avoiding eye contact. It’s just on the internet no one can actually see them so they’re given more attention and sometimes even get given some validation credence.

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