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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #50

1000 replies

nauticant · 07/08/2025 21:44

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 48: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-48 29 July 2025 to 31 July 2025
Thread 49: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5383443-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-49 31 July 2025 to 8 August 2025

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46
NotMyRealAccount · 26/08/2025 16:34

JustFish · 26/08/2025 13:41

I would hope not. He has shown himself fundamentally lacking in the honesty and probity required of a doctor. Just from having followed the tribunal : his behaviour in not respecting his female colleagues, keeping notes on their behaviour, manipulating the investigation process, the question of the phone records and his arrogant misinformation on the witness stand call his competence and ethics fundamentally into question.

Either he has fabricated potentially career ending allegations about a colleague, or he has not reported or escalated a patient safety incident (if the events occurred as he stated, which was not substantiated by NHS Fifes internal investigation). I honestly think his behaviour during the whole situation warrants a fitness to practice referral, along with several other individuals who colluded with the attempted stitch up and destruction of a nurses career and reputation.

I agree with this. One of the fundamental aspects of being effective as a doctor is getting to grips with the fact that it's not all about you. If you're doing your job well within a functioning team, almost nothing is about you. And as a junior doctor, you have to stifle a lot of personal indignation, shut your mouth, and get on with doing what you've been told to do.

AnnaMagnani · 26/08/2025 19:58

Absolutely @NotMyRealAccount

As a doctor I have to deal every day with other health professionals doing things that I really really wish they wouldn't. No doubt they feel similarly about me.

Yes there is Datix, but a lot of the time you just get on with things because in the long term, working as a team is more important than the niggles.

CarefulN0w · 26/08/2025 21:12

I may not have explained myself very well. I’m not advocating for Dr U to get his career back. Just pointing out that if he wanted to, keeping quiet might work out better than doubling down.

Oh, and having an appalling attitude to women won’t impede his career either, I’m sorry to say.

Bannedontherun · 26/08/2025 21:22

The thing is my daughter works as a senior nurse in the NHS and has been pretty much indoctrinated about the cult of TIMS being discriminated against bla bla bla.

She does not seem to believe they are actual women, but it is a subject we have to avoid, including the Sandie Peggie case.

JustFish · 26/08/2025 21:56

CarefulN0w · 26/08/2025 21:12

I may not have explained myself very well. I’m not advocating for Dr U to get his career back. Just pointing out that if he wanted to, keeping quiet might work out better than doubling down.

Oh, and having an appalling attitude to women won’t impede his career either, I’m sorry to say.

Careful - Your post was clear and I'm sorry if my reply sounded snippy. I was just responding to the ideas raised about Dr U's career and future in medicine, and expressing the concerns I would have about any doctor who was at the centre of this sort of shitstorm of dishonesty, lies and bullying.

Redshoeblueshoe · 27/08/2025 13:25

Does anybody know if Tribunal Tweets will be covering the submissions ?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/08/2025 14:02

I imagine so, as not everyone who wants to can watch live (me for one!)

FeralWoman · 27/08/2025 14:17

When are submissions? September 1 and 2?

Mmmnotsure · 27/08/2025 14:33

Yes, submissions are 1 and 2 September.

Tribunal Tweets are expecting to cover.

OhBuggerandArse · 27/08/2025 15:30

Information Commissioner back on the case archive.is/2025.08.27-140101/www.heraldscotland.com/news/25420853.nhs-fife-investigation-foi-peggie-case/

FarriersGirl · 27/08/2025 16:08

Good grief! Given the size of the hole they are already in you'd think they might stop digging, but no. And all the costs of NHS Fife's case will fall to the tax payer one way or another.

SqueakyDinosaur · 27/08/2025 16:08

And another piece from the Herald, which has just sent my blood pressure through the bloody roof: https://archive.is/yw2s0

“As a woman, who has been harmed by men and suffered prejudice, discrimination and misogyny, why would I fight for trans rights if I thought it was impacting women’s rights in a negative way? I wouldn’t. It’s frustrating people don’t recognise that....She adds: “I think now we know that it’s coming from concerted MAGA rhetoric.” This is the head of the Scotland Equality Network. I. Just. Can't. Even.

ArealAdultHumanFemale · 27/08/2025 16:51

SqueakyDinosaur · 27/08/2025 16:08

And another piece from the Herald, which has just sent my blood pressure through the bloody roof: https://archive.is/yw2s0

“As a woman, who has been harmed by men and suffered prejudice, discrimination and misogyny, why would I fight for trans rights if I thought it was impacting women’s rights in a negative way? I wouldn’t. It’s frustrating people don’t recognise that....She adds: “I think now we know that it’s coming from concerted MAGA rhetoric.” This is the head of the Scotland Equality Network. I. Just. Can't. Even.

That article is dreadful! How can a Lesbian, (married to another woman) the head of the Scottish Equality Network, come out with such utter drivel.
It's all about the Trans, isn't it. Always.

myplace · 27/08/2025 18:15

“Talk of threats from trans women means society fails to concentrate on the dangerous behaviour of men. We know there’s an outrageous, horrific rise in violence against women, sexual crimes and rape.”

How can she not see? That’s what we’re trying to talk about.

It annoys me as well that she’s trying to attach a general roll back of LGB rights.

Is this true? I’m not gay, those of you who are are you feeling push back as to whether your marriages are valid? I don’t see that anywhere. The only overall pushback I see is on lesbians wanting woman only dating and socialising spaces.

So in my eyes, trans is pushing lesbians out.
The rest of the world isn’t rolling back gay rights.

But I’m straight so I’m sorry if it’s happening and I’m missing it. I don’t have close lesbian friends- the couples I know aren’t talking to me if they are experiencing push back. Their FB pages seem unchanged- beautiful couple and family pictures.

myplace · 27/08/2025 19:00

I’m glad the information commissioner is coming for their arses though. They are drunk on their own self importance.

viques · 27/08/2025 19:37

SqueakyDinosaur · 27/08/2025 16:08

And another piece from the Herald, which has just sent my blood pressure through the bloody roof: https://archive.is/yw2s0

“As a woman, who has been harmed by men and suffered prejudice, discrimination and misogyny, why would I fight for trans rights if I thought it was impacting women’s rights in a negative way? I wouldn’t. It’s frustrating people don’t recognise that....She adds: “I think now we know that it’s coming from concerted MAGA rhetoric.” This is the head of the Scotland Equality Network. I. Just. Can't. Even.

Weird. she accepts that there is a rise in violence against women, perpetrated by men, but can’t accept that TIM are still men, many of whom despise women, are dismissive of our rights , our need for separate spaces, and who of course still hang on to the male strength and male physicality that makes them dangerous to women.

Very selective thinking going on there.

Peregrina · 27/08/2025 19:50

Where do you start with that article? As a woman in a lesbian relationship if either she or her partner had wanted to get pregnant, the Scottish Government would have stripped maternity rights from them.

MANY of the men attacking trans rights would strip abortion rights from women in a “heartbeat”, Kennedy adds. “The ultimate objective is quashing women’s rights. Once we allow trans women to be scapegoated it’s a slippery slope.

Agreed but how many Trans Identifying men would that affect? I can tell you - zero because no man has ever got pregnant.

SHE points to widely-held views such as “claims that ‘they’ are going to let men into women’s changing rooms now”. “They” being the government. Kennedy adds: “If that was the case, I would be against it, but that isn’t what’s happening. It’s categorically not what’s happening… Trans women have been using these spaces for decades without any problem.”

Where has she been for the better part of this year? Yes it appears that she has heard of Sandie Peggie, but somehow seems unable to recognise that Sandie's objection is to a man in her changing room. Nothing will make Upton a woman, however much surgery he has.

I gave up reading after that....

Bannedontherun · 27/08/2025 19:56

viques · 27/08/2025 19:37

Weird. she accepts that there is a rise in violence against women, perpetrated by men, but can’t accept that TIM are still men, many of whom despise women, are dismissive of our rights , our need for separate spaces, and who of course still hang on to the male strength and male physicality that makes them dangerous to women.

Very selective thinking going on there.

She is a perfect example of what she perceives to be reality for us ordinary folk based on her internet experiences (i note she states mostly men go after her)

Yet cannot register that women, do not.

She appears to me to be in a very limited world of experience from being an adult, and her subsequent career path.

Same could be said for Nichola, they live within a world of privilege, hang out with privilege, and speak of only their own sphere of experience.

the great unwashed are to her, MAGA, the males that attack her, ordinary women are beyond her perceptions.

She makes no mention really.

Enough4me · 28/08/2025 00:02

During this waiting time Sandie will know she spoke honestly and everything was dragged up and thrown at her. Her family and friends have supported her and the cause for women to have single-sex facilities.
Upton meanwhile maintained a massive whopper of a lie throughout.
I wonder how he dreams, what his subconscious throws up. Must be tough when you are used to being spoilt.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 28/08/2025 02:22

I am ridiculously excited about hearing the submissions to the tribunal next week!

Am trying to make a comprehensive to-do list for the next 4 days, and hoping to get a massive amount of jobs done so I can feel justified in being glued to the screen for the last leg of the tribunal.

KnottyAuty · 28/08/2025 09:04

JustFish · 26/08/2025 13:41

I would hope not. He has shown himself fundamentally lacking in the honesty and probity required of a doctor. Just from having followed the tribunal : his behaviour in not respecting his female colleagues, keeping notes on their behaviour, manipulating the investigation process, the question of the phone records and his arrogant misinformation on the witness stand call his competence and ethics fundamentally into question.

Either he has fabricated potentially career ending allegations about a colleague, or he has not reported or escalated a patient safety incident (if the events occurred as he stated, which was not substantiated by NHS Fifes internal investigation). I honestly think his behaviour during the whole situation warrants a fitness to practice referral, along with several other individuals who colluded with the attempted stitch up and destruction of a nurses career and reputation.

Being unlikeable and disrespectful of colleagues isn’t a sackable offence. If someone is good at their job I’m more interested in that, than hoping they’ll be my new bestie - but apparently I’m in the minority with that!? So your first paragraph (even if it’s not nice behaviour) doesn’t come close to the basis for a professional complaint.

The 2 big Fitness to Practise issues for me are:

  1. admitting under oath to wilfully ignoring a female patient’s request for single sex care - using deception/intimidation to get consent which is different to the scenario where it’s explained that no females are available and appropriate chaperones provided.
  2. tampering with tribunal evidence - the phone records - bringing the profession into disrepute.

It remains to be seen if the GMC will let these complaints make their way through their FTP system…

KnottyAuty · 28/08/2025 09:07

Mmmnotsure · 27/08/2025 14:33

Yes, submissions are 1 and 2 September.

Tribunal Tweets are expecting to cover.

Thanks Thank You GIF by curly_mads

Big shout out to TT’s amazing work! Thanks to the team whoever you are 😍

KnottyAuty · 28/08/2025 09:14

viques · 27/08/2025 19:37

Weird. she accepts that there is a rise in violence against women, perpetrated by men, but can’t accept that TIM are still men, many of whom despise women, are dismissive of our rights , our need for separate spaces, and who of course still hang on to the male strength and male physicality that makes them dangerous to women.

Very selective thinking going on there.

This quote was interesting:

You know what’s funny? The majority of people who come after me are men. It’s men who tell me I’m stupid. It’s made me stronger. I’m driven by injustice, so I’m in this for the long haul. I don’t intend to go anywhere. I will keep fighting as that’s the right thing to do.”

So how does she explain the pushback from women? Did she not read the SC ruling about the effect of T on the L? The female-led resistance is maybe quieter and less of a pile on but it’s proving very effective. Is she oblivious? The article makes it seem like she’s in a weird bubble and not up to date with the recent legal wins for wims?

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 28/08/2025 09:18

KnottyAuty · 28/08/2025 09:04

Being unlikeable and disrespectful of colleagues isn’t a sackable offence. If someone is good at their job I’m more interested in that, than hoping they’ll be my new bestie - but apparently I’m in the minority with that!? So your first paragraph (even if it’s not nice behaviour) doesn’t come close to the basis for a professional complaint.

The 2 big Fitness to Practise issues for me are:

  1. admitting under oath to wilfully ignoring a female patient’s request for single sex care - using deception/intimidation to get consent which is different to the scenario where it’s explained that no females are available and appropriate chaperones provided.
  2. tampering with tribunal evidence - the phone records - bringing the profession into disrepute.

It remains to be seen if the GMC will let these complaints make their way through their FTP system…

But ✨trans✨.

It’s reliably good Teflon.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 28/08/2025 11:08

KnottyAuty · 28/08/2025 09:04

Being unlikeable and disrespectful of colleagues isn’t a sackable offence. If someone is good at their job I’m more interested in that, than hoping they’ll be my new bestie - but apparently I’m in the minority with that!? So your first paragraph (even if it’s not nice behaviour) doesn’t come close to the basis for a professional complaint.

The 2 big Fitness to Practise issues for me are:

  1. admitting under oath to wilfully ignoring a female patient’s request for single sex care - using deception/intimidation to get consent which is different to the scenario where it’s explained that no females are available and appropriate chaperones provided.
  2. tampering with tribunal evidence - the phone records - bringing the profession into disrepute.

It remains to be seen if the GMC will let these complaints make their way through their FTP system…

Nobody has to be anyone's 'bestie' at work. But if he doesn't respect his female colleagues personally, he won't respect them professionally. If his focus is on himself - who's made him sad, who's complying, who's not, how to manipulate his superiors- it is not on his work or his patients. Some who is willing to lie to their own advantage in court will also do so in the hospital - covering up errors, taking credit that's due to others.

It may not technically meet the criteria for a fitness for practice case, but someone acting as described is by definition not good at their job.

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