NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #50

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 48: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-48 29 July 2025 to 31 July 2025
Thread 49: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5383443-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-49 31 July 2025 to 8 August 2025

Yes that's true, of course. I guess I was thinking of the line they tried to push that her changing room concerns were motivated by bigotry. And that anti-gay "bigotry" might = anti-trans "bigotry".

But of course it's a very poor argument.

Yes they were trying to push the small minded, racist, homophonic type stuff.

But even if she was a homophonic, bigoted, racist she still shouldn't need to strip off in front of anyone.

I totally agree.

Slightly bizarre in that Scotland Herald article that NHS Fife has a culture of secrecy hand in hand with loads of data breaches.

They are attempting a culture of secrecy and even failing at that 😂

I think it's kind of two sides to the sane coin. Senior staff who have no respect for data processing rules and procedures, who just store what they want where they want. Documents stored in email servers and shared drives instead of wherever the heck they should be.

Just dug the most relevant section out of TT, to the respondent complaining about Sandie's daughter. Might not be 100% accurate.

...you are also intolerant of people of other races
NC - I'm sorry how is this relevant ?
NC - it seems to be a general attack on Cs character.
J - how will this help us in our decision in this case
JR - by analogy, to intolerance of race is also to intolerance of trans people
J - wide latitude in x examination, I will allow, but I hope it will be short chapter
JR - now reading out SP husband facebook posts, about Islam, it's okay to be white, white people disappeared from TV adverts, these are racists posts,, you share these views
SP - I don't share those views, I don't post on Facebook.
JR - now a 'straight pride' post from husband
those are homophobic views.
SP - my daughter is gay, her GF is regularly in the house, I have no homophobic views

I agree, they have both been basically forced into defending themselves by revealing private information about Nicole's sexual orientation.

Yeah, I think it's just differing ways to be useless. People not knowing and/or caring what they were supposed to do, then people who realised at some point that there was a problem trying to cover it up.

Interesting reading the TT comments again. It hadn’t registered at the time but JR is asserting here that mentioning majority race or sexual orientation is somehow bigoted? Not having seen the specific Facebook posts it’s difficult to say - and maybe her husband I’d make problematic comments- but isn’t the one about representation in adverts a factual observation? It’s a bit worrying that JR claims this would somehow automatically be considered racism?

@KnottyAuty I agree, without having seen the posts (a) they didn't seem racist or homophobic and (b) they were her husband's anyway.

I assure you my mixed race family has taken the mic of some of these adverts too.

The final witness was brought in last minute. At this point, when Nicole was brought into it, there was no evidence whatsoever of any "isms".

As I'm sure you are aware, having been here far longer than me, TRAs are quick to accuse us of being white and racist. Equally the superficial parallels are sufficient to get many on board.

(As I've said, NHS Fife didn't give a rats arse about racism, it was just brought up when useful to support a white male using the women's changing rooms!)

Though I first popped up and said "no I'm not", among with others, noone should be expected to do so - and it opens us up to a different racism.

I've recently been reading Claire L. Heuchan, a black GC feminist lesbian in 'Woman who wouldn't wheesht" and the challenges she faced.

Sorry long post!

PS some people do think it's bigoted to ever mention ethnicity, except it seems of GC women. They are entitled to their views oc. I recall two conversations:

• a white relative calling up worried after the Meghan royal family row about someone discussing skin colour of new baby and worried she was doing something "wrong". Yes we discuss that!

• someone berating me after long convo trying to identify who someone's new partner was at a party "oh the Indian woman?" I was like "think. You are telling me I can't do that?! 😂

This should be a meme

JR - by analogy, to intolerance of race peanuts is also to intolerance of trans people

Indeed, some people think they can best avoid the appearance of racism by wilfully ignoring racial differences "I'm colour blind." they say. Absurd, and misses the point by a long way. Possibly they mean well.

Edited for typo

@TriesNotToBeCynical not your point...but I did used to be skin colour blind until 20s ish, suspect it happens if you grow up in a mixed family.

I got two aunts of completely different ethnicities but rather similar age and personalities constantly muddled. 😂

Evidently that also depends on my having a poor visual memory. Agree this is unusual.

Nobody is colour blind, for me i was aware of racism as a pink/white person, because i had a first cousin who was Chinese, and adopted as a baby. And i saw and heard peoples behaviour.

I think times have changed though. People are mostly not directly racist but came make silly assumptions and generalisations.

I think Sandies jokes on WhatsApp were way out of line but is not indicative of her personal decency.

Evidently that also depends on my having a poor visual memory. Agree this is unusual.

I have moderate face blindness. If I do have a visual memory of a person it tends to be just odd one or two key features - distinctive eyebrows, or a specific style of beard for example. So while I certainly wouldn't claim to not see colour if I'm looking directly at a person, I am completely incapable of retaining it for some people.

Which is entirely beside the point, really, but it's interesting to 'meet' someone with a similar mental glitch.

@NoBinturongsHereMate I don't know if you have similar challenges with visual information?

I found that my visual imagination improved greatly on Sertaline, and to a lesser degree my visual memory. I guess the extra chemicals helped connect my neurons somehow in new ways.

It's hard to explain how I was race colour blind, I guess it was a bit like not noticing someone's clothes or what colour their hair is. I once embarrassingly at secondary school asked a black girl who her brother was in a group. It was oc the only black boy.

The first time I started to really generally "notice" ethnicity was at uni when I moved to a less multicultural area and starting feeling more conscious around it.

Human perception is remarkable and varied, and increasingly studies generally show how flexible the infant brain is.

Maybe in a mixed family, skin colour isn't how you first group family/other and so isn't what you tend to notice first. Anyway...

It's just faces/people for me. Remembering something I read in a book, I can picture the exact location on the page; I navigate visually; I can match a cushion in a shop precisely to the curtain hanging up at home without taking a sample thread with me; I'm pretty good at those 3D mental rotation tests and could draw you a floorplan of houses I've not seen in 40 years.

But a person in my memory is - at most - a disembodied pair of ears, or a floating set of freckles. I'm probably one of the few people who genuinely would be fooled by Superman's cunning disguise of donning a pair of spectacles (he could equally brush his hair the other way, add a moustache, or wear a hat).

I think young children don't always notice colour or race. When my DD was in kindergarten she brought home a painting of a little girl with a pale pink face and a darker pink dress. She told me it was a picture of her friend Erin (whose skin was dark brown in colour) and added "but I don't think it's a very good picture." When I asked why she thought that she said "Well Erin never wears pink."

@Britinme is your DD pale skinned? I think children are inclined to start from a position of ‘everyone is just like me’, and then adjust as they notice differences. Seeing their best friend as their twin, vibe.

I’m poor at faces, overly reliant on hair. Easily fooled by superman combing his hair differently- I love that idea!

As a teacher, I used to struggle on school photo day as the DC would all be particularly well groomed and I couldn’t work out who was who!

DH unconsciously absorbs knowledge of cars. He knows who drives what on our street and among our friends. He knows all the brands and models.
I can have ridden in a car, or know someone well and still be able to say only ‘I think it’s a blue one’.

I'm good with remembering and recognising faces. There was the man I met once, briefly, 12 years ago and instantly recognised when we met again. I remember watching 'The Search for Spock' and noticing that the Klingon commander Kruge was played by Christopher Lloyd, which I thought very funny at the time. It follows that for me, men in make up are just that.

Little Britain used to have a great sketch on how it was problematic to mention race, sexuality or disability. (Yes, I know Wallaims and Lucas are wankers but I always thought the sketch was clever)

The premise was that a uni student would ask the secretary to see their professor. The secretary would phone through the name of the student but the professor would always ask for the student to be described. The issue was that the student was always easily described- they might be curled up with cerebral palsy, a butch lesbian covered in tattoos, have a terrible stutter or be a very stereotypical looking member of a non-white race. The poor secretary had to describe the student without actually using their most obvious feature.

I’ve done a google but can’t find the Fife insulting the judge references.

Would you have a link?

It wasn't the judge, it was the Information Commissioner David Hamilton.
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/5284333/nhs-fife-information-commissioner-trans-tribunal/

They didn't call him Diddy, did they?