M&S apologises over trans employee in bra department (Telegraph)

[WimbledonWhites]

How many “cis” male members of staff do you suppose would approach teenage girls in the lingerie department?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/08/04/ms-apologises-over-trans-employee-in-bra-department/

https://archive.ph/nTDB9archive.ph/nTDB9

These people have been trained out of trusting their instincts, unfortunately.

Normal impulses that facilitate safeguarding abandoned for the 'be kind' points.

The best case scenario, and the most benign, is that this is a man who lacks awareness of what it's like for a girl, lacks awareness of appropriate boundaries, and lacks empathy.

He could be a genuinely lovely and kind man who really feels better for wearing women's clothing. And really wanted to help a girl out and was exceptionally helpful.

It doesn't really make much difference to the girl, does it. She's still distressed, disturbed, upset, frightened, 'freaked out'.

But hey, who cares, right? She's just some phobe who hasn't learned her place yet. I'm sure the right side of history will teach her that she's a disgusting gross bigot in due course. And she'll learn that it's fine for her to accept the help of men, even those who 'freak her out', and she'll seek education to get over her bigotry and reframe her trauma, and know to use the correct pronouns.

And M&S put a member of their staff in a position that opens him up to such accusations. They have failed him as well as the customers.

Actually most MTF transitioners are now men who have been cross dressing since childhood and this has turned into an erotic obsession which distorts their sexuality. Trans ideology has now given them permission to suggest that " I've known I was in the wrong body since childhood".

There are even well trans influencers who have openly said that it was pornography that made them trans.

This is a good point. If I worked in M&S (I’m a 58yo woman) I would never dream of approaching a woman and her teenage daughter while they shopped for bras. My instinct, my empathy, my experience, my history of BEING female would tell me to leave well alone. Unless they were craning their necks searching for a member of staff, I would give them space.

Safeguarding is about anticipating harmful behaviour and assessing risk. You have no idea what was in his mind because the mother intervened. What if the girl had been on her own? The fact that he approached them in the lingerie department is a massive red flag, and sensible people will see it as such. We really have to rid ourselves of this insane notion that men pretending to be women are potentially less predatory than any other men, in my view they are automatically more of a risk precisely because they are already pretending to be something that they’re not, that’s what predators do. 98% of sexual crimes are carried out by men, that’s why all men should be kept out of women’s spaces.

Even if he didn’t want access to the girl in the changing room, he wanted her to act as a prop for his, “I’m a lady” fantasy.

If only we could tell which ones the ‘dodgy ones’ are?! Thanks for telling us you are completely unaware of safeguarding and risk assessments.
Predatory men pretend to be something that they’re not in order to violate women and children’s boundaries, men pretending to be women commit sexual crime at a higher rate than other men, so please excuse those of us who educate ourselves in these matters as we continue to treat men violating our boundaries as potential predators.

If they cannot recognise the boundaries of female people, either intentionally or not, they are causing significant harm that should not be dismissed.

If a person has been led to believe that they are a different sex to what they are, and they cannot understand that they are the sex they materially are, why is society supporting this belief? And why is any organisation putting any other person in a position where a person who cannot understand which sex they are can cause them distress?

Do you believe it is for others to act as support humans for a person who doesn't acknowledge what sex they are, whether that person genuinely believes they are the opposite sex to what they are or not?

This is true. I like the fact that no one asks if I need help in M&S. Staff are helpful if I ask for help (different size or whatever) but they never initiate the conversation.

Women who freely participate in the delusions of cross dressing men to their own detriment never cease to amaze me.

That's always what it boils down to:

'Women must sacrifice their rights, so that men can better enjoy their rights.'
Women must cede everything, even our own identity, to accept what men tell us.
Transwomen are women, and no woman should dare to say otherwise.

And apparently, those women who refuse to believe that any male person should be treated as if they were a female person based only on their philosophical belief should also accept being shamed by those who accept that philosophical belief.

Apparently, society has become tolerant and inclusive, didn't you know?

I can’t decide if they are genuinely naive or they just accept that some women, including themselves and their loved ones, will be harmed and that’s the price that must be paid to appease men?

I think it is often a case of 'I'm alright Jack'. That they wish to cling to their luxury beliefs because they will not be negatively impacted at all.

I am highly concerned by parents with such low boundaries modelling this behaviour to their children. And they seek to shame those who recognise the issues clearly as the being issue here.

My experience of M&S for decades is being totally ignored by staff when you need to ask them something, which is why I very rarely venture in. Perhaps this person should be taken off the shop floor, where he’s an embarrassment, and given the job of training others in customer facing roles.

In the vast majority of cases, these women are reasonably privileged and do not envisage themselves being harmed.

If other, less privileged women, have to pay the price for their luxury beliefs, it's not something that seems to bother them.

and given the job of training others in customer facing roles.

Really? If they're an embarrassment in this role themselves, I wouldn't advocate training positions.

Surely there's tonnes of backroom stuff that needs to be done.

Yep. That's the extra sad thing about elevating people who claim a 'trans' identity to the status of a special caste. It often ends up harming them as well as others.

Indulging someone's delusion is fine so long as it doesn't harm others - once it crosses the line into upsetting other people, it is no longer harmless, and those in charge should recognise the risks - in this scenario, the risk to girls upset or unsettled by being approached by a man when they are in a vulnerable situation, and the risk to the staff member when being encouraged, enabled, or supported in this behaviour. This will inevitably lead to problems for everyone.

How is his supervisor/HR going to explain that it wasn't appropriate to approach a girl in this situation? What words will they use? What actual outcome are they expecting?

The "really vulnerable" man in "your community" decided to approach the girl without being asked for help.

You as a parent can make poor choices for your girl.

You can choose to allow a male sales person put hand on and around her breasts. She may not come to harm (direct or indirect) as a result. She may grow older and decide your choices were poor choices and judge you for them.

I do applaud your optimism in the motivations of men who like to be in women’s spaces and appropriate hour words but I respectfully suggest you spend a bit more time listening to men who identify as trans. They don’t take long to reveal their motivations.

From the man in a short dress and no underpants who hangs out in department store cafes taking pictures of his penis to out in the internet, to the men who take triumphant pictures of themselves in the ladies toilets or go on Woman’s Hour and claim they are just as likely to get raped as a woman (all 6’ unit of him).

A high profile man who talks about how easily women’s ’eggshell skulls’ break and has an interest in extreme porn, the one who writes books for children with explicit gay sex in, the one who enjoyed talking to women at work about how dirty he felt as a child when stealing his sisters underwear, another man who purports to speak for women about endometriosis. The list is endless and these are not fringe cases, these are high profile trans spokespeople who are regularly platformed by the BBC, particularly Woman’s Hour for *reasons.

People told us to listen to trans people, so we did and it’s not a pretty story.

Stating posters sound 'insane' and instructing posters to get their heads 'out of their ass' is not only rude, it's spectacularly missing the point.
Not all trans people are 'nice' : you may know some and that's great for you. So do I but that's not relevant here. People have surely heard of AGP?
And mentioning 'real trans' people sounds very transphobic actually.
If you say you wouldn't object to a TIM fitting a bra for your female relative, do you know for sure? What if they object? Does that make them transphobic?

“We want to make this experience as comfortable and positive as possible for her. Please let us know when you plan to visit again, and we will make the necessary arrangements,” the email said.

So any woman or girl wanting a comfortable and positive experience when buying a bra from M&S now needs to call them in advance to arrange it?

The fact M&S have confirmed they need advance warning to ensure conditions are appropriate for teenage girls says it all.

Actually no, my H has never bought me clothes in 30+ years of marriage, but if he had, he would have been in the shop as a customer and therefore free to wander round as he wished. A member of staff, however, is at work and supposed to be somewhere - on the till for example - not approaching young girls in the lingerie dept.

"Cis" is a slur.

Errr wot?

If it is not appropiate it what make it not appropiate?

A male ( brought up in the UK one assumes) believed it was OK to walk up to a young girl (a stranger to him) and start talking about her breast size?

That is the position you want to take?

Oh, I absolutely agree with you. I was taking issue with the fact that some posters were effectively making stuff up. Of course we have to anticipate what COULD happen when it comes to safeguarding, but there were a few cries along the lines of ‘how dare he think he could measure this girl for a bra!’ Nothing in the article suggested that he did. I just get a bit pissed off with inaccuracies. Some posters came across as not having read the article. I’m not trying to excuse or minimise this man’s behaviour in any way. And I don’t think, as a member of staff, he should even have been in the general vicinity of a lingerie department.

Edited to say there’s another yet inaccurate comment in the post above mine. Nothing in the article suggested that this trans woman wanted to discuss breast size.