Is it hateful to say humans can’t change sex?

[1971feminist]

In a landmark hearing at the NZ Human Rights Review Tribunal, the question of whether it is hateful and harmful to say that men can’t be lesbians is under scrutiny. Read more about it here https://open.substack.com/pub/resistgendereducation/p/is-it-hateful-to-say-humans-cant?r=24091f&utm_medium=ios

OK fair enough. I've been on here a while but I haven't seen any other posts on this subject so far.

I just feel like me, inside. How would I know if I felt male or female?
I'm wearing walking trousers and a black t shirt, no makeup. I've got navy blue trainers on. I'm driving a big white works van too. So I'm clearly not femaling very well today.

Are you liking the thought of having babies, though? 🤔

@Mackerelfillets so who does this assigning of sex then?

I currently cannot think of anything worse.
Edited to say, I don't much fancy men either

Where do you like to hang out - here with the ladies or with the boys at reddit?

Last time I went over to Reddit, it bombarded me with notifications for months. I'm not sure where I went wrong but I'm not risking it happening again.

This is a good time to post this reminder. Because this really is hypocritical in that it is forgetting that male people are declaring that they can describe themselves as being 'female', based only on their own belief of how a female person 'feels' / interacts with the world.

No male person can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is an act of misogyny by the way.

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.

Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is.

How can it be?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

And no male can have that body, not matter what chemicals or surgeries they have.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome. And I consider the outcome can only be described as misogyny.

Which is that they will always be just a male who believes they are something they are objectively not.

How can the material reality be any different?

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid.

TL/DR? A person stating that they don't 'feel like the sex they were 'assigned'' has absolutely no reference point for declaring that they feel like the opposite sex. At all. Because how can they? As a male person, they are highly likely be feeling like something that is nothing at all like a female person experiences.

"It is a long a arduous journey."

Womanhood is not a reward for a male person's 'arduous journey'. It is misogynistic that any male person thinks that they deserve a reward for their very own elective medical decisions.

How hateful is that to feel entitled to claim to be a 'woman' because you chose to undergo extreme body modifications? And all because you were led to believe that society should support your philosophical belief that you are not just another version of a 'man'.

There is no biological or neurological marker that is common to all people who have transgender identities. The only commonality is their philosophical belief that doesn't reflect material reality.

No more hateful than telling someone you can’t change their blood type or eye colour.

These threads where I'm reminded I'm not womaning correctly by someone who says that women must follow gender stereotypes to not be trans amuse me every time they come up.

I mean, come on, do people not think this through?

I drink beer not wine, never wear make up, always wear jeans and a hoody. Don't and never have owned high heels. Have had babies but never particularly liked the thought of it.

I have no idea what gender I'm supposed to be? Can anyone help?

You need to pay a little more attention to the world.

Those with willies, remain male even if they put on a dress. Cutting off a willy or taking hormones still doesn't magically change your sex. Cos biology and reality.

Sex and gender stereotypes are not the same thing. Otherwise women would still be chained to the kitchen sink. Is that what you would prefer?

Following gender stereotypes does not make you change sex strangely enough.

Equally lots of people here have family members who come out with this crap, and family members understand it's crap. Not because they are bigoted but because they see how the crap is not helping their distressed relative and is actually causing more harm. They understand that lying to their relative doesn't help nor address how they are feeling no matter how well intentioned. 'Being kind' is a load of bollocks if it's just superficial affirmation.

I find it remarkably arrogant when people do drive by scoldings for subjects they freely admit they aren't well read on and don't really understand the issues.

This is 2025. Get with the programme. The Supreme Court has ruled, quite tightly, that you can't change biological sex and you remain your own biological sex even if you want to live your life by opposite sex sexist gender stereotypes. It pointed out the deep seated homophobia that's often part of this too. And there's been an independent report talking about the significant harms to children due to affirmation only approaches which have failed to safeguard.

Stop talking like it's 2018 and the height of lunacy and corrupt activism. The conversation moved on a long time ago.

"For a lot of people that means they dress and act in the gender that makes them feel more comfortable and more like themselves."

How the fuck does someone 'act in [a] gender' ?

Is this like those male people who sob into their videos because their hormones made them all emotional? Or they are curled up weeping from their gastric distress they call a period? Is this like someone wanting to giggle a lot or having deep and meaningful discussions?

I have to say that whenever I see someone say that people are acting like the sex they profess to be when it is not the reality of the sex class their body belongs to, I wonder at how people are convinced of this. And how the fuck they think this plays out in real life and on a feminist chat board.

Then I see this:

"I'm interested in generally most things others females are interested in. I'm attracted to males, liked the thought of having babies etc. Sometimes men, people assigned make at birth, feel the same way I do. That's when gender does not match biological sex."

Well fuck! I am heterosexual. And babies? WTAF? And supposedly this is stereotypical female behaviour that means if a man is heterosexual and like the idea of having a baby in their life they are 'female'? And even though I had a baby, I didn't 'like' the thought of having babies at all. I also wear androgynous clothes, don't like make up and do the DIY around the house and stuff that probably falls into 'man' territory. I am now questioning whether I am really good enough to be a woman because some person has decreed that there is set stereotypes that define womanhood and manhood.

No it's the truth

I dont think that TRA would explicitly say that a man has to dress or act a certain way to become a women.

They are more of the belief that gender is an internal feeling that doesnt need to be expressed outwards. Its fine if they want to dress a certain way, or attempt to pass, but not doing either doesnt negate their trans status.

What they believe is that this inner feeling of gender is important and sex is not.

This is partly true.

Because as we can see, there are still groups of people out in the world who are fully supportive of male people being able to say they are female people based on the logic that we have seen expressed here.

I would agree that many activists try the impenetrable and never definable 'inner feeling' which has cross overs to what has been posted here.

No it isn't its basic biology and reality. If we get to the point where we can't state facts for fear or upsetting someone and puncturing someone's delusion then that leads us to a crazy and dark place.

The who debate is so circular because if we say or do anything to point out that trans people haven't and can't actually change sex that shatters their internal delusion and it makes them feel bad, experience dysphoria and so to them it feels like an act of violence because to them it does harm their sense of self. However if everyone plays nice and goes along with their delusions to keep them happy they take take that as permission for total overreach. Suddenly its not just us being kind to help them not feel dysphoria but they are saying they are in fact actually women, that woman is just a social construct and anyone can be a woman, even a man and that as such they should also have access to women's single sex spaces, sports and rights. All of that is a massive overreach and violation of women's rights by men.

So women say no, stop being nice and kind and say well actually you can't change sex and transwomen are in fact males and therefore men and they want to make that a hate crime? Well I'm sorry but no can do. We need to retain the right to speak the truth because being silenced is just an open invitation to men to steal and erase women's rights.

Inner feelings of an individual that become more important than the inner feelings of a collective group is know as narcissism.

The inability to understand that your inner feelings are not more important than someone else's is known as narcissism.

A man telling a woman that sex is not important and inner feelings of gender is narcissism.

You can say you 'feel like a potato' anymore than a woman can say she 'feels like a man'. It's a meaningless concept based on stereotypes and assumptions. You can't feel like something you actually aren't. How do you know how a potato feels?

To say you do and to expect others to go along with it is exceptionally arrogant and narcissistic.

You can't get away from the problem that such levels of centring the world around yourself rather than accepting the world as it is, is a massive power trip for narcissistic tendencies.

Even if we are kind and charitable about this, the underlying problem remains. We can't change the world by lying to appease the feelings of others to such lengths especially if it does harms to other groups in the process.

That makes it fundamentally unkind.

I agree that trans ideology allows, even facilitates, narcissism.

That there isnt any logic or continuity allows individuals to demand so much of everyone else. One man say hes a woman because of gender, others because he passes, others because of drugs and surgery.

So society is expected accept all of these men, even though they contradict each other. I can see why people talk to one trans person and believe they understand, then are accused of transphobia when they state that trans is just one thing.

"Most of the time biological sex matches gender, this is called cis. But sometimes it doesn't. I am female, in myself I feel female. I feel feminine. I like to wear female clothing, make up, do my hair etc. I'm interested in generally most things others females are interested in. I'm attracted to males, liked the thought of having babies etc. Sometimes men, people assigned make at birth, feel the same way I do. That's when gender does not match biological sex."

One of the things I questioned when I really started to think about trans stuff is why does 'gender' have to 'match' biological sex? What does it even MEAN for gender to 'match' sex? It is that if you are female you must behave and think in a feminine way, and if you are male you must behave and think in a masculine way (depending on the social construct of masculine and feminine?) But that is crazy, and sexist stereotyping; surely no one accepts that women, in order to be women, MUST have a feminine personality, do feminine things, act in a feminine way. I object to the idea that sex matches gender in the first place, or that it has to. This is like saying your skin colour has to match a particular personality type.

I notice you say that you 'feel feminine', you like to wear 'female' (I presume you mean feminine) clothing, you like to do your make up, hair, you are interested in most things other females are interested in, you're straight and like the thought of babies. And that, apparently, is when gender does not 'match' bio sex and means someone is trans. Well...by that definition I'm trans even though I'm a bog-standard woman, because I don't feel any of those things. But I think it's sexist, offensive, and regressive to say that because I don't particularly like makeup and dresses and babies and men that I'm no longer a woman.

"But I think it's sexist, offensive, and regressive to say that because I don't particularly like makeup and dresses and babies and men that I'm no longer a woman."

I don't even think it covers the majority of women to be honest. It might have in one era, decades ago. But now, I doubt it. I haven't worn a dress for two decades, I walk out of the house without make up, I just run a brush through my hair too. It is ludicrous to believe that we are womaning wrong because of some person's belief in sexist stereotypes.

Everyone knows this, though. Everyone knows women who don't fit that stereotype and it never occurs to think of them as trans.

So lots of trans supporters have to hold two distinct thoughts in their head at once - that a tim is a women because they like 'lady' things, and a women is a women regardless of what she likes.

Oh heck, dh is manning wrong! He changes our dcs' nappies, bathes them, climbs into bed with them when they need comforting through illness or nightmare. And enjoys doing it. He cooks complex meals without making mess, cleans, does the household shopping, carries a massive amount of the mental load of running a family home. And is pragmatic and uncomplaining about the need for doing it. He likes going clothes shopping with dd. And delights in showing us what they've bought together.

He must actually be a woman! I'd best tell dh he's trans. Or maybe he's non-binary, because he also does DIY and knows how to check tyre pressures. Oh, and earns vastly more than me, and did not take a career hit when our babies were born.

Or maybe he's just a decent man. How's that for a counter-revolutionary notion?

Stereotypes can go take a running jump.

So you think female = feminine, yes?

In your view a female who isn't feminine isn't really female - in some way, their real true self is male and penisy?

MackerelFillets "There's no sexist attitudes"
Also MackerelFillets "Females are people who are feminine and attracted to males!"