Page 3 | Is it hateful to say humans can’t change sex?

1971feminist · 2025-08-01T20:59:03+00:00

In a landmark hearing at the NZ Human Rights Review Tribunal, the question of whether it is hateful and harmful to say that men can’t be lesbians is under scrutiny. Read more about it here [[https://resistgendereducation.substack.com/p/is-it-hateful-to-say-humans-cant?r=24091f&triedRedirect=true https://open.substack.com/pub/resistgendereducation/p/is-it-hateful-to-say-humans-cant?r=24091f&utm_medium=ios]]

MooDengOfThailand · 02/08/2025 17:37

Ljs7 · 02/08/2025 16:03

I think that yes it's hateful. Just because it's true, it doesn't mean it's not a hateful thing to say.

"You are fat and ugly" - might be true, but is hateful
"Your test score was pathetic and disgraceful" - might be true, but is hateful
"Your clothing/house/whatever makes you look really poor" - might be true, but is hateful.
"Your teeth are crooked"
"Your son is really very behind compared to mine"
"Your house smells of dog piss"

There are better ways to put these things -if they even need to be said at all, which they might not. You know humans can't change sex, but there is no need to parrot that at someone who is really struggling with their body and identity issues.

Things that need to be said can be said kindly, rather than just thinking that because things are facts, that they aren't hurtful and hateful.

Would you say to a woman having a double mastectomy for breast cancer - oh if you have a kid after this, you won't be able to breast feed. Breast feeding is the best start you can give a baby's gut. Your baby will miss out on health benefits as well. And expect that to go OK? After all, people seem to think it's ok to say stuff if it's a biological fact?

Oh, please.
🙄

The full moon is next week.

Igmum · 02/08/2025 17:43

Brainworm · 02/08/2025 09:37

A distressed transman is on a bus, explaining to her friend how upsetting she finds it when other people think of her ‘as if I am a female’. The person in the row in front turns around as says, ‘you can’t change sex’.

Intent and impact are key determinants as to whether something is hateful. In the scenario above, the intervener will know that their comment is going to cause, or further, the transman’s distress. Concluding this was a hateful thing to say is not unreasonable - despite what is being said is true.

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It isn’t nice and the trans man will be upset but it’s true and it isn’t illegal. There is no right not to be offended. We’ve had some glimpses of what could happen when one group try to claim this ‘right’ and it isn’t pretty. I’m afraid that in those circumstances the trans man is just going to get upset. Hopefully her friends will rally round with shedloads of chocolate and ice cream but we as a society can’t endanger our democracy so one trans man doesn’t feel sad.

Brainworm · 02/08/2025 17:45

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 02/08/2025 17:26

I really hate to be picky, but haven’t you just misgendered this imaginary trans man?

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I use sex based pronouns

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 02/08/2025 17:51

Igmum · 02/08/2025 17:43

It isn’t nice and the trans man will be upset but it’s true and it isn’t illegal. There is no right not to be offended. We’ve had some glimpses of what could happen when one group try to claim this ‘right’ and it isn’t pretty. I’m afraid that in those circumstances the trans man is just going to get upset. Hopefully her friends will rally round with shedloads of chocolate and ice cream but we as a society can’t endanger our democracy so one trans man doesn’t feel sad.

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Completely agree. Heaven forbid that a trans person should ever be UPSET!! The ridiculousness of this cult is beyond comprehension.

Myalternate · 02/08/2025 17:58

Ljs7 · 02/08/2025 16:03

I think that yes it's hateful. Just because it's true, it doesn't mean it's not a hateful thing to say.

"You are fat and ugly" - might be true, but is hateful
"Your test score was pathetic and disgraceful" - might be true, but is hateful
"Your clothing/house/whatever makes you look really poor" - might be true, but is hateful.
"Your teeth are crooked"
"Your son is really very behind compared to mine"
"Your house smells of dog piss"

There are better ways to put these things -if they even need to be said at all, which they might not. You know humans can't change sex, but there is no need to parrot that at someone who is really struggling with their body and identity issues.

Things that need to be said can be said kindly, rather than just thinking that because things are facts, that they aren't hurtful and hateful.

Would you say to a woman having a double mastectomy for breast cancer - oh if you have a kid after this, you won't be able to breast feed. Breast feeding is the best start you can give a baby's gut. Your baby will miss out on health benefits as well. And expect that to go OK? After all, people seem to think it's ok to say stuff if it's a biological fact?

It’s not hateful but it is likely hurtful.

Hateful means strong feelings of dislike.

Sally690 · 02/08/2025 18:12

Ljs7 · 02/08/2025 16:03

I think that yes it's hateful. Just because it's true, it doesn't mean it's not a hateful thing to say.

"You are fat and ugly" - might be true, but is hateful
"Your test score was pathetic and disgraceful" - might be true, but is hateful
"Your clothing/house/whatever makes you look really poor" - might be true, but is hateful.
"Your teeth are crooked"
"Your son is really very behind compared to mine"
"Your house smells of dog piss"

There are better ways to put these things -if they even need to be said at all, which they might not. You know humans can't change sex, but there is no need to parrot that at someone who is really struggling with their body and identity issues.

Things that need to be said can be said kindly, rather than just thinking that because things are facts, that they aren't hurtful and hateful.

Would you say to a woman having a double mastectomy for breast cancer - oh if you have a kid after this, you won't be able to breast feed. Breast feeding is the best start you can give a baby's gut. Your baby will miss out on health benefits as well. And expect that to go OK? After all, people seem to think it's ok to say stuff if it's a biological fact?

There is no comparison because absolutely none of the things on your list of facts impact other people. Someone having crooked teeth or being fat and ugly or badly dressed has no impact on the people commenting.

Pretending you're a woman when you aren't though can and does have an impact on other women - and that's why it's not possible to just turn a blind eye and be kind. Someone has to stand up and defend women's rights (thank you JKR).

It doesn't mean you have to be yelling at every trans person you see, but it does have to be said.

HereForTheFreeLunch · 02/08/2025 18:30

This thread is just below the Canada hockey rape trial one. Women talking and speaking the truth is hateful. Men degrading, raping, strangling etc etc etc women is all fun and games that she loves! 😡

Account734 · 02/08/2025 18:40

No, it's a fact. If people can't handle biological facts then they are the ones with the problem.

AloeVeraAloeFred · 02/08/2025 19:06

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 02/08/2025 17:26

I really hate to be picky, but haven’t you just misgendered this imaginary trans man?

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I think from this person's posts that they are gender critical and agree with you that the trans man is female. They're just making the point that there are a few specific limited scenarios in which pointing this out in a particular way (unnecessarily / achieving no purpose and with the intention to cause distress), motivated by an intense dislike for that person or their characteristics, could be construed as hateful. Which I think as fair. It's not the same thing as saying it's always hateful to state the biological reality of sex - that's a false equivalence indeed.

I can think of another example. A trans man is dying, you approach their death bed and say "you're not and you'll never be a man, human beings can't change sex" - I think that would be hateful. Obviously, it's a bit of a stupid example because GC feminists aren't doing this, they're just pointing out reality because it's pertinent to their feminism.

In a way these random specific examples help to demonstrate that generally speaking, it isn't hateful to point out that human beings cannot change sex.

For the pedantic among us, it can be difficult to resist the gauntlet being thrown down (eg "try to think of an instance where staying the biological reality of sex is hateful"), that's all. *I actually personally disagree with the bus scenario, I don't think that meets the threshold for hateful! But it's possible to discuss the matter in good faith.

OldWomanInACardigan · 02/08/2025 19:08

Of course it isn't hateful. It's the truth.

TheKeatingFive · 02/08/2025 19:26

AloeVeraAloeFred · 02/08/2025 19:06

I think from this person's posts that they are gender critical and agree with you that the trans man is female. They're just making the point that there are a few specific limited scenarios in which pointing this out in a particular way (unnecessarily / achieving no purpose and with the intention to cause distress), motivated by an intense dislike for that person or their characteristics, could be construed as hateful. Which I think as fair. It's not the same thing as saying it's always hateful to state the biological reality of sex - that's a false equivalence indeed.

I can think of another example. A trans man is dying, you approach their death bed and say "you're not and you'll never be a man, human beings can't change sex" - I think that would be hateful. Obviously, it's a bit of a stupid example because GC feminists aren't doing this, they're just pointing out reality because it's pertinent to their feminism.

In a way these random specific examples help to demonstrate that generally speaking, it isn't hateful to point out that human beings cannot change sex.

For the pedantic among us, it can be difficult to resist the gauntlet being thrown down (eg "try to think of an instance where staying the biological reality of sex is hateful"), that's all. *I actually personally disagree with the bus scenario, I don't think that meets the threshold for hateful! But it's possible to discuss the matter in good faith.

Edited

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There are certain situations which are obviously more heightened than others.

Bringing up anything controversial / contested on someone's deathbed is problematic.

Barging in on a private conversation uninvited is generally a rude thing to do.

But these are situational issues rather than specific to the subject.

Even so, they strike me as rude and inappropriate rather than specifically hateful.

illinivich · 02/08/2025 20:05

If its wrong to say horrible or unthoughtful things, my mother is going down for life.

Are we really suggesting that its the states business how individuals talk to each other and we have to be nice to each other like we are primary school children?

If someone is convinced they've changed sex and are living their authentic life, why do they care if someone tells them that they havent changed sex?

borntobequiet · 02/08/2025 23:07

A snake?

florizel13 · 03/08/2025 08:36

It's a biological fact. Every cell in our body has either XX or XY chromosomes (with admittedly some rare exceptions) and that can't be changed. My friend who works in bone health has to ask patients with osteoporosis if they were male or female at birth due to some treatments only being able to be given to biological females

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/08/2025 08:55

CarefullyCuratedFurniture · 02/08/2025 17:13

I honestly think its more hateful to allow mentally unwell/ autistic / abused people to believe that it IS possible to change sex and by doing so, somehow identify out of their pain and trauma. Much healthier to say to people, you can present any way you want, you can identify however you please, but you honestly can't change sex.

This. It isn’t “kind”, it’s weak.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/08/2025 09:02

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 01/08/2025 22:31

The TransActual website has information about transphobia:

https://transactual.org.uk/transphobia/

I picked out a few highlights:

The denial of self-determination ... constitutes transphobia. For example the denial that trans women are women, trans men are men and that non-binary people’s identities are valid and should be respected

Using biological essentialism to try and delegitimise trans people....[is transphobia]

“Man”, “Woman” and “Non-binary person” are social/cultural statuses. Trans people have existed for millennia throughout history and in every part of the world. Consequently, trans people have as much right to claim their genders based on biology or otherwise as cis people do. The Endocrine Society states that there is “a durable biological underpinning to gender identity”. That being said, bio-essentialism plays into the hands of extreme right-wing ideologies.

Deliberate misgendering ... is abuse. Calling trans women, “men” or trans men “women”, or non-binary people “men” or “women” is transphobia. Using the wrong pronouns, such as “she” for trans men and “he” for trans women is misgendering. Not using “they/them” (or similar) pronouns for non-binary people is transphobic as is using these terms for binary trans people.

Treating trans people any differently from those who are also the same gender is transphobia. For example, treating trans women as different from cis women is discrimination and has been defined as such in the UK’s Equality Act (2010).

I emboldened my favourite bits. So I guess the answer to OP is ...yes?

No explanation. Just, because we said so.

There are some insane claims there, especially in the light of the SC ruling, how can “Trans Actual”, purporting to be a serious organisation giving advice, claim it’s “illegal” under the EA to treat “trans women” (men as per the EA) differently to “cis women” (women as per the EA)?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/08/2025 09:03

But reading it again I see the wording is extremely disingenuous. Still the suggestion that “cis” is a legal term and set out in the EA 2010 is dishonest. It all begs the question, what are all the tantrums about the SC judgment about?

Merrymouse · 03/08/2025 10:07

The Endocrine Society states that there is “a durable biological underpinning to gender identity”. That being said, bio-essentialism plays into the hands of extreme right-wing ideologies.

But we will use the argument in a vague non-specific way, and then throw a strop when it doesn't stand up to scrutiny in court.

BellissimoGecko · 03/08/2025 10:14

It’s the truth. It’s a fact. Just because someone doesn’t like the truth, that doesn’t make it hateful.

LoudlyProudlyHorrid · 03/08/2025 10:21

Igmum · 02/08/2025 17:43

It isn’t nice and the trans man will be upset but it’s true and it isn’t illegal. There is no right not to be offended. We’ve had some glimpses of what could happen when one group try to claim this ‘right’ and it isn’t pretty. I’m afraid that in those circumstances the trans man is just going to get upset. Hopefully her friends will rally round with shedloads of chocolate and ice cream but we as a society can’t endanger our democracy so one trans man doesn’t feel sad.

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Agree
It could be said by someone only wanting to cause upset. It may be said by someone who feels that the person's friends are being cruel in buying in to the delusion and they need a cruel to be kind brush with reality in the form of a stranger who is prepared to tell the truth. Who knows.
Words have meaning and hateful is only applicable if the intent behind something is actual hate. Otherwise it's thoughtless, insensitive, honest, well meaning, harsh, disagreeable etc etc. It now seems to be used for 'things that I find upsetting'

illinivich · 03/08/2025 10:23

Its a way of control.

By saying its wrong to talk accurately about sex, we cant even get to the point of saying why sex is important. And it focuses everything on the needs of the trans person, not anyone else who will be effected.

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 03/08/2025 10:30

Merrymouse · 03/08/2025 10:07

The Endocrine Society states that there is “a durable biological underpinning to gender identity”. That being said, bio-essentialism plays into the hands of extreme right-wing ideologies.

But we will use the argument in a vague non-specific way, and then throw a strop when it doesn't stand up to scrutiny in court.

We are really the opposite sex because of something real about our physiology (CNS, presumably).

But the rest of you aren't allowed to say that physiological differences between bodies have any significance to law or custom.

We are permanently furious, because we know that this makes no sense.

(And illtempered is furious because the state is endorsing bad logic.)

ThatsNotMyTeen · 03/08/2025 10:35

Brainworm · 02/08/2025 09:37

A distressed transman is on a bus, explaining to her friend how upsetting she finds it when other people think of her ‘as if I am a female’. The person in the row in front turns around as says, ‘you can’t change sex’.

Intent and impact are key determinants as to whether something is hateful. In the scenario above, the intervener will know that their comment is going to cause, or further, the transman’s distress. Concluding this was a hateful thing to say is not unreasonable - despite what is being said is true.

Show quote history

being hurt doesn’t make it hateful

ThatsNotMyTeen · 03/08/2025 10:36

illinivich · 03/08/2025 10:23

Its a way of control.

By saying its wrong to talk accurately about sex, we cant even get to the point of saying why sex is important. And it focuses everything on the needs of the trans person, not anyone else who will be effected.

Exactly that. Looking at that transactual definition, everything that isn’t 100% affirmation is hateful. If we can’t have any mention at all of biology it closes down all discussion. Clearly the point

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 03/08/2025 10:38

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/08/2025 08:55

This. It isn’t “kind”, it’s weak.

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Agreed, but I go further to say it's cowardly in a self serving fashion, because instead of having to acknowledge there's a problem, and finding a solution, much easier to agree, then they can clap themselves on the back for being such a good person, without having to put themselves to any trouble to do anything that is actual good.