NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #49

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 48: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-48 29 July 2025 to 31 July 2025

So, does that mean it doesn’t matter if NHSF claims the law was easy to ‘misinterpret’ then? Or that they were led astray by google or legal advisors? Or, that they did what everyone else was doing?

There is no excuse, whatsoever, if they broke the law.

I don’t know what possible case Upton could claim to have.

Sandie and her legal team decided to pursue a claim against DU, separate from the health board. Does it look like they want a ruling of harassment against DU possibly to also serve as a warning to others trans people who may think they’ll just ignore the law?

I wonder why the Darlington nurses are not also going after Rose for harassment? I think they are only taking action against the Trust

Upton/NHSFife can say that even if they got the law wrong, it wasn't actually a detriment to SP to have DU in the changing room - that it was unreasonable for her to object to the presence of a trans-identifying man. It may have been wrong in law, but it's such a tiny tiny thing that she couldn't possibly have been hurt by it. If she didn't suffer a detriment, by definition she wasn't discriminated against.

Meanwhile, DU did suffer a detriment from her - she genuinely did harass him because her conduct was unwanted and violated his dignity. So the investigation was properly instigated. Whatever defects there were in the conduct of the investigation they couldn't have been a detriment to SP because she was cleared, so no victimization occured.

Etc etc etc.

Thanks. Frankiy sometimes when looking at all this I don't know myself what I mean...

Fair enough

Just popping on to express my awe at @nauticant and her ability to set up one new thread after another. Many thanks!

Here I go again….🎶🎶
Thank you all.

Just jumping into recommend the latest episode of The Two Matts. They have the journalist Sonia Sodha as a guest who gives an extraordinarily clear and succinct summary of the Sandie Peggie case.

Ignorance of the law is no defence. They had lawyers & HR who they bypassed (although the legal team instructing this case seem incompetent at best) Didn’t even make best efforts in my opinion.

I fear you’re right.

I always thought ignorance of the law is no defence.

Out of interest why did you use the term "segregation"? But maybe I shouldn't go there.

Michael Foran seems fairly confident that the tribunal decision will be appealed, either by Dr Upton or by Sandie Peggie.

I can't tell if we are at the end of the beginning or the beginning of the end.

Sex segregated spaces

Does anyone know how Sandie is?

Regardless of JR's attempts at mudslinging, public opinion still seems to be very much on SP's side.

She used it in its normal sense of keeping things separate, as any dictionary could tell you.

It shouldn't. It is often said that ignorance of the law is no excuse. That isn't entirely true, but it should be here. Employers are expected to know and follow all relevant law.

@SionnachRuadh thank you for that link to SEEN in Journalism summary. It was really interesting & insightful. I love linking back here for the generosity of spirit of posters. I’ve name changed for each thread so apologies if I’m not recognisable but thank you. 🙏

It's a group of nurses so perhaps for difficult to claim harassment if it's against multiple women.

If Dr Upton wants to appeal but NHS Fife don't would the appeal still be able to go ahead? Would NHS Fife have to pay his legal costs for the appeal?

Yes, according to Foran, Upton can appeal separately. He suggested that the Good Law Project might be willing to fund an appeal.

Would the Sandie.Peggie claim against Upton be that he wasn't someone just caught up in the NHSF processes he actively colluded with NHSF to circumvent fair treatment

Well my dictionary would point to the simple word separation for the normal use of keeping things separate. I keep my raw chicken separate from my cooked chicken in the fridge. I don't segregate my cooked chicken from the raw. But I think you know that very well.

Does the fact that clearly JR wanted to blacken Sandie's name in public not exacerbate the claims of victimisation?