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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #47

1000 replies

nauticant · 29/07/2025 11:43

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

OP posts:
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15
NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 29/07/2025 13:08

Would love to be a fly on the wall in the closed tribunal management meetings.

Lunde · 29/07/2025 13:09

prh47bridge · 29/07/2025 12:52

NC has said there have been developments overnight. We don't know what has happened and it is possible we will never know. Given that this is coming via NC, the obvious possibilities are:

  • the witness who was going to give evidence for SP about the group chat has pulled out. If that is the case, they will need to decide whether to use a witness summons to force her to give evidence
  • more witnesses have come forward. This could be about anything - nurses unhappy with Upton in their changing room, someone who was at the meal referred to by one of yesterday's witnesses who wants to dispute their account, someone who has evidence of Upton making racist jokes, etc.
  • something has emerged about the group chat - they've found messages that are helpful to SP or they have evidence that the chat has been manipulated and the jokes weren't posted by SP

But these are just a few wild guesses off the top of my head! We may find out in the next few hours.

Other possibilities

  • something has happened to SP that means she can't give her rebuttal testimony - illness/threats ?
  • Someone has found a copy of the original Re: e-mail that started the gang of 6 group chat - neatly filed in the paper recycling bin.
moto748e · 29/07/2025 13:10

What does "closed tribunal management meeting" mean, exactly? NC and JR and the Judge and panel?

FloridaCat · 29/07/2025 13:13

Very curious to know what the development is...

SionnachRuadh · 29/07/2025 13:14

In this case I think both counsel with judge and panel. Which suggests it's something significant and not just a minor detail needed direction from the judge.

Gotta say, if I were Big Sond I'd be absolutely pissed off by now. Judges like their hearings to run smoothly, and presiding over this one must feel like being stuck in a lift with the Marx Brothers.

Lunde · 29/07/2025 13:14

moto748e · 29/07/2025 13:10

What does "closed tribunal management meeting" mean, exactly? NC and JR and the Judge and panel?

Yes it's when the lawyers and panel go off in private to discuss issues - there have been a lot at this ET around scheduling of witnesses and late/non submission of evidence by Fife/DU

HereticMyrtleLion · 29/07/2025 13:15

moto748e · 29/07/2025 13:10

What does "closed tribunal management meeting" mean, exactly? NC and JR and the Judge and panel?

Discussion about the case.

Claimant and Respondents’ legal representatives argue in front of the judge and possibly the panel.

Claimant has called for the meeting.

It could discuss adding new witnesses, recalling previous witnesses, entering new material into evidence or whether factual and/or legal submissions can be made verbally or in writing. Also whether additional days are required.

As it is closed, I believe it will be about adding new witnesses or evidence.

Liverstreaming · 29/07/2025 13:15

Agreed @SionnachRuadh Going part heard once is unfortunate but twice is embarrassing. And the case management here has felt like trying to wrestle greased octopi from the start.

TheKeatingFive · 29/07/2025 13:16

PM

GreenFriedTomato · 29/07/2025 13:17

Especially as a nurse. The implication is that you might be hungover or pissed while on duty.

Oops that was in response to 'imagine being known as Gina who likes a drink'

WomenShouldStillWinWomensSportsIsBack · 29/07/2025 13:18

2 minutes to reconvening...

HereticMyrtleLion · 29/07/2025 13:18

TheKeatingFive · 29/07/2025 13:16

PM

You can always hit Bookmark and then you’ll return to the thread at that point.

Scout2016 · 29/07/2025 13:19

God I'd love it if the delay was because someone close to Upton wants to give evidence that he was indeed on a witch hunt.
Or he's detransitioning.

JR gave Sex Matters witness a chance to explain the issue really clearly - he's a man, some are a danger, we don't know which, men shouldn't be in SSS for women. Refreshing after everyone else tying themselves in knots about it the last few days. He's a man, that's the issue, it's not complicated. I'm notvsure it's what she intended but I'm glad it was said. A reminder of the existance of AGPs too.

I snorted when she went down the "this is just unproven say so" route after the quality of her witness's gossip evidence and memory lapses. Bit rich!

NebulousSupportPostcard · 29/07/2025 13:21

On the Post Room matter, I remember someone explicitly recommending postcards when the idea of sending SP support messages was first mooted, precisely because postcards would remove any fear of untoward messages or items within envelopes.

I sent postcards for those reasons and also because it is lighter weight for the post workersdealing with high volumes, and it is a chance for anyone nosey to see the outpouring of support within the text, that I would be happy for anyone to know about.

flopsyuk · 29/07/2025 13:22

So if MC doesn't need to examine him to confirm he has male genitalia then it would have been obvious through the NHS scrubs or other clothes he was wearing as a guess?

I presume she has not seen him naked or in underwear as Consultants didn't use the same changing room.

So the claim by other witnesses that it wasn't obvious he was a man is disputed?
Meaning the when he was in the changing room getting undressed it was obvious he was a man.

So as a guess he would walk in wearing clothes showing a bulge in the crotch area and with the build of a man. Then even if he stripped down only the top half (to show a bra) anyone seeing him walk in would know he was a man already.

I've only seen the one report of what he actually did on the changing room. NHS scubs are tops and bottoms. I can see online that there are different styles of tops. Some appear to be hip length.

But if MC knew he had normal male genetic without an examination it must have been obvious?

UpDo · 29/07/2025 13:22

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 29/07/2025 13:08

Would love to be a fly on the wall in the closed tribunal management meetings.

I reckon its one of those that would be enjoyable and interesting at first, but by this point even the flies on the wall are barely keeping the will to live.

Lins77 · 29/07/2025 13:23

He's only been identifying as a woman since 2023 IIRC, unlikely he has had genital surgery in that short time I imagine.

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 29/07/2025 13:24

Re-posting these wise words from Andrea Dworkin:

"Feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy in behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don't like, including all the women you don't want to be around, including all the women who used to be your best friends whom you don't want anything to do with anymore. It doesn't matter who the individual women are."

NebulouslyContemporaneous · 29/07/2025 13:24

UpDo · 29/07/2025 13:22

I reckon its one of those that would be enjoyable and interesting at first, but by this point even the flies on the wall are barely keeping the will to live.

Can we have AI image of desperately bored flies on walls? Perhaps drinking irn bru to stay awake

Lins77 · 29/07/2025 13:24

Good that EM was able to mention vast majority of trans do not have surgery, as I think many people don't realise this.

Mollyollydolly · 29/07/2025 13:25

I assume the Sex Matters testimony was to show there was much support for Sandie at the hospital.
Re the opening of mail they should have informed Sandie and Upton they were doing so. I can understand why they would do so, having worked in a high profile office, when there were terrorism threats mail for the high profile people in that office was all opened separately in a separate office in case of ricin attacks.

WomenShouldStillWinWomensSportsIsBack · 29/07/2025 13:26

Lins77 · 29/07/2025 13:24

Good that EM was able to mention vast majority of trans do not have surgery, as I think many people don't realise this.

I pointed this out to someone the other day and showed them the stats. They were shocked. The more people who know this the better.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/07/2025 13:26

Yes, it was a bit of a silly argument that JR made, the kind of argument that generally only clueless #bekind people make.

GinaWhoLikesADrink · 29/07/2025 13:27

GreenFriedTomato · 29/07/2025 13:17

Especially as a nurse. The implication is that you might be hungover or pissed while on duty.

Oops that was in response to 'imagine being known as Gina who likes a drink'

Edited

Ah, c'mon, it's not like I'm driving a fork-lift at work🙄

Appalonia · 29/07/2025 13:28

Sad Times
In corridors of Fife, where logic apparently sleeps,
Sandie speaks of dignity while management turns somersault leaps.
A half‑naked rant at Christmas Eve, misgendered fury swirls—
Suddenly the nurse’s world unravels in policy whirl.

“Embarrassed!” she declares, “intimidated!” by presence unassumed,
Meanwhile HR drafts emails calling police before facts are groomed.
A tribunal beckons—with the judge kindly decreeing:
“You may misgender in court, lest your worldview needs freeing.”

Inside, the campaigners chant, “Biological sex must stand!”—
Sex Matters lends its weight; ‘class war’ whispers from JK Rowling’s hand.
But evidence is fiddled—a phone edited post‑confrontation;
“Too little proof,” the board sighs, and drops the misconduct accusation.

A nurse of thirty years stood on identity’s sharp divide,
While NHS spent hundreds of thousands funding every siide.
Now tribunals resume in Dundee—an absurd legal show,
Where comfort in single‑sex spaces becomes the star of the low.

Sad times indeed—where shared cubicles birth courtroom drama
And complaint becomes a crusade, in Scotland’s NHS saga.
May satire hold the mirror up to absurd institutional rides,
Where biology meets HR slides—and dignity slowly subsides.

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