NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #47

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

Thank you for writing these words. It has been going around in my head the words and feelings I wanted to convey.

The way this thread has gone just shows that annoyingly JR played a blinder towards the end. The actual point has been lost amongst the noise.

Anything to minimise the racism, eh?

But its not the 70s/80s/90s anymore... Its the 2020s. And SP will have had plenty of statutory training working 40 years in NHS to know what was said wasn't ok. And not just 1 joke but a myriad of them.

IMO, We really shouldn't be trying to minimise her bigoted views, because we don't need to - they're absolutely irrelevant.

Tell you what, I’d rather spend a night in the pub with SP than some of the pompous arses on this thread.

I wouldn't actually be surprised if there's a thing going round social justice circles saying that "corner shop" is a racist term.

Two of my aunts (RIP) ran corner shops, and they were both persons of pallor.

Sad times.

We do it all the time at the Vic. It's a friendly greeting. The doctors get a bit huffy about it but that's cos they're fannies.

Sadly not. I'm a premium user and I'd pay double for that option.

Have a think about it MNHQ ,😄

That's what you find obnoxious? People not using racist words in the past ten years?

What I can't get my head around is why not using offensive words is taken as being a marker of being middle class.

A poster upthread assumed that because my parents would never have allowed us kids to use words like p... or ch...., they must have had 'formal education past 16' or had diversity sensitivity training to have picked up 'political correctness'!

You don't get taught respect at uni, or at DEI sessions. My parents didn't even get secondary schooling, they were out earning their living in their teens, so they certainly didn't get - or need - any formal education or political correctness to know how to treat other people with respect. All other people, regardless of race, creed, colour or class.

How did they manage it, them being from poor backgrounds and uneducated and all that?

It was commonly used in London.
There was a joke which compared the usefulness of the shops on Sundays with what Fergie & Andie got up to.

Things I’ve seen disgusting “black humour” about:

old people dying in care homes because of covid
Boxing Day tsunami
9/11
London bombings 2005
IRA attacks
random car crashes and deaths sick people find amusing or notable

this is just a few examples. Facebook comments in particular are awful.

Given the jokes made after the 7/7 bombings the idea that there wouldn't have been black humour after the 2004 tsunami seems incredibly unlikely:
www.thetimes.com/travel/advice/laugh-we-nearly-died-nx5gn2mw9hh

I think it is perfectly possible to think there is too much legal/illegal/asylum immigration and still treat everyone you come into contact with with respect.

It is also possible to use outdated terms for different groups and still not be racist/disablist.

SP had 30 years of service with no complaints. I find it hard to believe if she was strongly racist that wouldn't have shown in patient care.

And I think it is irrelevant to how she has been treated by NHSF.

@nomas I’m sorry? Did you have a problem with my experience because it doesn’t align with your crusade?

@nomas I found one in minutes that managed to combine the tsunami with the twin towers.

I’m afraid you’re sorely mistaken if you think anyone’s tragedy is immune from dark humour.

I think only your post has bunched all older people together
others are posting their individual experiences or those of family and friends

No one has said anything remotely ageist

Like I said previously, textbook deadcat.

Very edgy!

I think people are objecting to your continual objections - because this can come across as holier than thou. Nobody is actually defending the hatred of people based purely on their country of origin or the colour of their skin.

There was a whole crowd of thousands at Glastonbury this year chanting '"'Fuck Zionists", and as an English person ( albeit with some scottish ancestry) living in Scotland I used to be very aware of anti english sentiment all of the time.

Not just Fife but newsrooms do a lot of dark humour like that. The police are the worst. Was eye opening for me as a new reporter especially waiting around at crime scenes.

They stop doing it if you don’t act receptive to it though.

And that’s what is striking about the ‘jokes’ - Sandie copied and pasted those from Facebook into her friends group because she thought they’d find them shocking but funny. And they did. Not one of them complained or admonished her.

The quote by Kazuo Ishiguro about the few knowledgable people in the room being talked to a standstill by those around them comes to mind.
The racism is abhorrent but it's a massive distraction and will be leveraged to a t by the TRAs in due course and forevermore, but right now some people are doing their work for them.
There is no perfect victim.

Yes, but we are not the panel or the judge. And in submissions, I think JR will have a hard time trying to say "SP is a racist, therefore was not treated unfairly by NHSF".

Getting back to the submissions - what is JR going to put in hers?

"Yes I know that Fife were wrong in law but Stonewall/EHRC told us it was ok, and anyway everyone was doing it"
"...and the Supreme Court decision is just about Public Boards so does not apply..."
Does anyone have any better guesses?

My grandparents ran a corner shop. Mum explained that end-terrace on a corner was better suited to shops than mid-terrace, for extension and access reasons.

You think Pakistani patients would be happy knowing their doctor or nurse is sending 'Ps go home' memes?

Would you be happy if your doctor or nurse was sending racism memes about your ethnicity?

Or are you sitting in your ivory tower because you're part of the majority?