NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #47

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

JR In message you say trans have all rights. Are you generally resentful.
SP That Beth has a right to be in CR. We were told he had the right.
JR Suggests you are resentful of t people having all the rights and same as immigrants stealing our jobs
JR [reads] inc G. "omg, it was on about pronouns" That's DU. Inhumanising
SP Wasn't me that said it.
JR Asking you if agree calling someone it robs them of humanity
SP Don't mean to offend anyone. Don't speak like that in from of people.
JR You've referred to DU at it

It is fairly common to hear people refer to the mentally disabled as 'retards' or 'retarded' in the U.S.A. In Britain that has not been used for many years and is now seen as offensive, although I can imagine a few people may still use it.

Conversely In Britain it is still fairly standard to refer to people from the far east as 'Oriental' whereas in the U.S this is seen as racist.

Some older people still refer to black people as being 'coloured' because they think it is polite. Saying 'black' at one point was felt to be racist and was considered offensive.

In Liverpool many young men still refer to their girlfriend as their 'bird'. in fact there was, until recently, a shop called 'The Scouse Bird Shop' which sold candles and decorative objects, jewellery etc.

Clearly going down the route of making out her concerns about Upton are based in intolerance and nothing to do with women's spaces. Basically taking online left wing dude discourse into the courtroom. Because women of course never really care about women's rights, it's always a front for something else.

I don't recall.

I don’t think that it is a defence but context. She thought it was normal and folk didn’t tell her otherwise. I think she has shown herself to be capable of remorse and to regret actions. Should we never allow someone the space to learn?

Really so what if she called Upton a weirdo.
I'd call any obvious bloke in a dress, or in this case scrub trousers and a bra, who insists on being in a women's changing room, despite women being uncomfortable, a weirdo too.
Alan Baker is most definitely a weirdo and all the pervs who masturbate in women's toilets are weirdos too.
I probably wouldn't say it at work but I'd say it and be unapologetic.

"Ah, c'mon, it's not like I'm driving a fork-lift at work🙄"

Given the comment you were replying to I thought this was going to be the German training film about being a fork-lift driver.

"Forklift Driver Klaus" (it starts off very typical for a training film but then everything starts to go wrong)

(warning - it does get quite bloody)

JR as it. At the lunch.
SP No
JR Are LN and FW lying about that.
SP Yes.
JR[reads} Gina - Insulting and derogatory to DU
SP Yes
JR and You add about the shadow and pathetic voice. Add more derogatory.
SP In a small group of friends.
JR Holding DU up to ridicule. Mocking

Sometimes I wonder if people know how to read opinion polls. Something like 80% of the electorate think that current immigration levels are too high. It might be a higher number if you're specifically talking illegal immigration.

I make no value judgment about that, it is what it is. It's just that I encounter people who think most of the population is in favour of essentially unlimited immigration, that if you're not you must be some kind of Tommy Robinson fan, and who are totally convinced that they're not in a bubble.

Joking about Pakistani flood victims is racist.

These things do need to be challenged, especially when so many are silent.

While superficially ’it’ sounds awful, if you aren’t prepared to use the incorrect ’she’ and DU rejects the accurate ‘he’ then it is what you are left with.

He wears a bra, we have that on good authority (well allegedly good authority, ie on oath, though whether the oath taker is reliable in their ability to recall simple facts they may or may not have witnessed, overheard, been told is another matter ) .

What is in the bra is an unknown.

Except she's saying she still uses the P word because it's how she grew up.

This is the crux of the matter. All the rest is noise.

Given the emphasis on pronouns I kind of get the "it" thing though I don't like it - Upton is human, not a thing, and it is dehumanising. But you hear people say "he, she, it, whatever" when pronouns are at issue. I don't condone it but I think it's a bit less heinous in these particular circumstances.

How have we got to a place where people don’t consider a man wearing women’s clothes and makeup and using the women’s changing rooms as a ‘weirdo’ - it’s weirdo 101 ffs!

JR Holding DU up to ridicule. Mockinappearance. What you and Gina say.
SP It's just dark humour between friends.
JR These messages don't put you in good light so you've come up with dark humour explanation.
SP No. It's just me with friends.
JR [1740 - SP v DU] Sounds like boxing match. Was DU always your targe

@OatcakeCravings Worryingly, JR is acting FOR critical belief I think in an upcoming Civil Service case where they are defending (I think- not certain) the existence of the SEEN network. She has been appointed by the Civil Service itself - which perhaps suggests they want TRAs to win???

They do need to be challenged, but they aren't relevant in this case at all and thus don't need challenging in this case. It's a smear campaign because they have nothing else to try and pin on her.

Racism and not wanting to share a female changing room with a man are totally different things.

JR got a nerve to say it's just hearsay evidence. That's been what most of hers has consisted of.

🤨 I learnt exactly the same. It’s not ageist FFS, it’s an explanation that many, many communities in the 70s/80s used casual racism. It’s not an excuse, it’s a statement of fact.

Enough of the sanctimonious BS.

JR asking who is funding the case
NC objects

@Shortshriftandlethal I only learned Oriental was wrong recently. Don’t really understand why.

DM was reprimanded by a nephew for referring to the Spastic Society.

Going back to the awfulness of NHS management...

More complicity in racism. Sandie's manager shouldn't have been allowing her (and any other staff) to use the term "Pakis" in 2025 in an NHS hospital as it's offensive.

There should be clear training for all staff on multiculturalism including where jokes/banter is actually racism and bullying.

It's disappointing. I had hoped Sandie would have apologised for forwarding inappropriate jokes and agreed language was unacceptable.

Of course NHS Fife only care about this racism when a white privileged upper class man decides to transition to being a woman and use the female changing room.

Or, as pertinent to this case, women who think it is important that men don’t insert themselves into spaces where women are undressing or otherwise vulnerable. Women who are creeped out by this utter rubbish, and don’t believe men are women, just because they demand others pretend they are.

She’s right on that score.