NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #47

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

SP DOn't remember at lunch. Remember discussing with a paramedic and he had said that.
NC Name SP John [missed]
NC You've said previously that NHS Fife has diverse workforce. How does race of individuals you deal with affects treatment

It is painful

TT
SP DOn't remember at lunch. Remember discussing with a paramedic and he had said that.
NC Name
SP John [missed]
NC You've said previously that NHS Fife has diverse workforce. How does race of individuals you deal with affects treatment.

"Ms Peggie said Pakistani is the "politically correct" term but said the community were happy with being referred to as "P*" at the time"

Cringing.

@HereticMyrtleLion @MarieDeGournay

You are doubling up on the TTs

SP Like to think all treated same. One colleague was called P**i and abused and I know she wasn't' and said why didn't you just say you were Indian and she said cos I am a Pack [missed]
NC c you asking for photos of DU? In what circs were you asking

I'm a bit older than SP and yes people did use P word but it always seemed derogatory, I never used it. There was a lot more casual racism.

It's going to be cringey but it has to be dealt with. You can't uncross the Rubicon.

I'll carry on if OK with Heretic Myrtle?

Yes Marie said she had to go out, so I offered to do it.

Of course, being allowed in WCR could be seen as a key component of ‘living as a woman’ since it’s pretty clear any of the biological components are unavailable. So if you are seeking a GRC there’s a genuine tension if you aren’t permitted to. However, I have lived my whole adult life as a woman and never been remotely bothered by (for example) being called sir by the kids at school.

Absolutely, it is totally different! NC would have been able to show that very clearly I think, but if JR had managed to bait anyone into responding it would have resulted in another long walk down a winding garden path to look at squirrels.

TRA tactics we're all familiar with really. Add in irrelevancies to muddy the waters, bait with squirrels, in this way try to control the conversation, don't let anything ever be cleared up, run down the clock & everyone's patience, make the feminists angry and then get offended / faux hurt by their comments, make as many people as possible think "oh dear, it's much more complicated than I thought it would be. Maybe it's just far too complex for me to figure out. I'll listen to you (TRAs), because you seem so confident and knowledgeable".

A way to stick the boot in like a child being spitefully mean probably just feels like a bonus to JR / TRAs.

NC Anyone spoke to who didn't agree?
SP LN, Fiona and Jackie James - they didn't agree. JJ said where do you expect her to get changed so presumed she didn't agree.
NC Any other colleagues who didn't agree
SP Not that I can recall

SP naming all the people not previously named who agreed that Upton should not be in the CR. Long list.

I’m not convinced this was a great idea getting Sandy to defend those remarks tbh. Put them in context and apologise yes but don’t defend.

Damning evidence of culture of fear if these have only now agreed to be named.

Thanks HeriticMyrtle I'm back in action now.

NC Names of colleagues who agreed?
SP I've named previously - were in agreement he shouldn't be using it .
NC Are there more you haven't named
SP Anna Dunstan, [missed] [difficult to hear - has named five] [And now a receptionist as well, another, two more receptionists

Have these people agreed to be named?

I wonder if DU is keeping notes of this and a list of names...

The Scotsman
Ms Peggie’s lawyer Naomi Cunningham is asking her about a message she sent in the Benidorm group chat - this message contains a series of jokes about the Pakistani floods. The nurse is asked where the jokes came from and she says “presumably they came from Facebook”.
Ms Peggie said: “Looking at them they’re distasteful.
“At the time they were sent in dark humour, expecting a shocked reaction from the girls.”
She is also asked about using the word Pki regularly whilst growing up. Ms Peggie said: “Yes, it was a normal word we used, like going to the shop, to the Pkis, it was a normal word we used.
“I had my first job in a shop called Pki Ali’s and I worked there for a year and had a good relationship with Ali. I socialised in a pub, The Country Inn in Kirkcaldy, and it was owned at the time by a Pki called Jav, that was just how we described [them].
“Pakistani is the politically correct word, but I grew up using P*ki and they were quite happy at the time.”

SP seems quite young to be saying the use of P was normal growing up. I am similar age and grew up feeling ashamed that the word was used by some in my family when I knew fully from a young age that it was very wrong.

Keep pulling that curtain back Dorothy!

I thinks It's "sod the bloody lot of you" right now

Receptionists are an odd choice. They'd agree with Sandie and be right to do so, but it didn't affect them presumably so I'm surprised she asked them.

The issue has to be hit head on. Not that it will undo what was said, but allows for SP to have an opportunity to answer.

It’s irrelevant to this individual case though, given that Fife had no knowledge when making the decision to suspend, despite JR trying to push the nasty person who didn’t deserve due process/not to be harassed/legal SSS narrative.