NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #46

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed. (Considerable understatement.)

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025

We still don't know the timeline for the remaining days, do we? It was a bit "we'll see how we go"? I really hope this doesn't have to be prolonged until December.

Highly important, but not relevant to this case. Used to stoke emotion I reckon.

I wonder what reference NC made to something from the WhatsApp in connection to LN, which was placed in the evidence, but chose not to read out loud? Will anyone there in person look in the bundle(s) and report it, I wonder?

Edit: corrected spelling.

I thought this was the final week?

Today was a major victory for the NHS.

It seems to have shown that they have several staff who either behaved badly, made ill-judged comments, broke patient confidentiality, shared patient info inappropriately and didn't report concerns via correct channels. Doesn't seem like much of a victory.

Sandie shared a post with those awful "jokes". Really vile jokes about a tragedy with major loss of life. Apologies if this is a stupid question, or seems insensitive, but are they racist/do they show racism? It seems like they could equally have been made about a tragedy happening to people of the same race. (I've seen "jokes" online about e.g. the Manchester bombing which were equally horrific, just the content and puns were different). Sharing either of these shows insensitivity, poor judgement etc - is it the same as being racist or bigoted?

I wonder what it was that was so bad that NC didn't read out from the group chat? Have to say, reading the tribunal tweets, it's become obvious where the previous rumours came from! What a toxic bitchy environment to work in!

Seems like JR has pulled off an effective dead cat diversion, at least in the sphere of public commentary -
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_cat_strategy

Let us suppose you are losing an argument. The facts are overwhelmingly against you, and the more people focus on the reality the worse it is for you and your case. Your best bet in these circumstances is to perform a manoeuvre that a great campaigner describes as "throwing a dead cat on the table, mate".

That is because there is one thing that is absolutely certain about throwing a dead cat on the dining room table – and I don't mean that people will be outraged, alarmed, disgusted. That is true, but irrelevant. The key point, says my Australian friend, is that everyone will shout "Jeez, mate, there's a dead cat on the table!"; in other words they will be talking about the dead cat, the thing you want them to talk about, and they will not be talking about the issue that has been causing you so much grief.

Everyone is now talking about SP's distasteful opinions, instead of the substance of her claim. Fortunately I do not think the ET Judge & panel will be so easily swayed from the main focus.

The judge read out a detailed timetable for today and NC and JR both called it ambitious but achievable. I didn't memorise it in detail but it starts with cross examination of Maggie Currer from last week, then SP, then the extra witnesses. The judge and other panel members were to consider whether to allow Emma ?, the Sex Matters person who took a call from someone at NHS Fife, to give evidence via CVP, or to disallow that.

@StellaAndCrow I agree the joke is not the issue- similar humour circulates after all tragedies regardless of the race of the victims. I mentioned Apollo and the Man United air disaster as old ones I remember.

These ‘jokes’ used a racist term short for Pakistani, which is perhaps the most controversial part.

It’s been thoroughly explored.

But I think Dead Cat is the key here. Let’s not get distracted from the serious issue in this case, by other serious issues.

I think only a racist person would share these jokes. I admire Sandie Peggie for standing up for herself and for other women but I won't excuse her racism. I hope she wins her case but do feel it will fuel the wrong notion that only bigots support her view.

starting at 9 today.. lets go SP and NC!! 💪

Didn't they say 9.30 start?

Did SP share an image with the “jokes” on our type them out herself? I think this does make a difference, typing them out takes time and thought while simply sharing an image is very different.

She shared a list of jokes that was being shared on social media at the time. They are distasteful and horrible - but do they show racism or bigotry? Is there any suggestion that she shared them BECAUSE they were about people from Pakistan/non-white people?

I've seen similar vile "jokes" about the Manchester bombings, US school shootings etc.

Does it make it race-related because it's about something that happened in Pakistan to mainly non-white people? (genuine question, I'm interested in views)

LN must surely answer for sharing patient information, there's something extremely grotesque about it. If it's brushed aside it only cements the targeting of SP.

Are people with RW views or even those with privately held racist/sexist/islamophobic views beyond the bounds of employment even when there is no evidence of these views impacting their ability to do their jobs?

No. But if they ever decide to take their employer to an Employment Trubunal, they had better make damn sure they haven't been daft enough to share a bunch of racist/sexist/homophobic jokes with (potentially backstabbing) colleagues in a Facebook chat!

But I find it difficult to believe people with those views are completely able to leave their views at the door of their place of employment.

Having said all that, SP is obviously entitled to a sss to change in regardless of her views. What she doesn't have is the right to harass a transwoman who has been given permission to change in the female changing room.

I think what NHSF was trying to do yesterday was to make people believe SP might be the sort of person to do that and weaken her case that she was the one being harassed. I am not saying I think this, btw. Just musing on NHSF's motivations.

Thanks for the insight re: the p word in Pakistan. A pp mentioned something similar, I think.

But that’s the Trump smear all over again. Some people who are GC will be racists. Some will be murderers, some will be trade unionists, some will be homophobes, some will be adulterers, some will be charity fundraisers, and paramedics and firefighters and royalty and and and…

It’s possible some will be pure in every area of their life, but unlikely.

Sandie’s other thoughts and opinions say nothing about the rest of us, except we are human.

I dont actually know i meant to say i think it starts at 9 lol

from herald
7:48am
Good morning. The Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife employment tribunal continues in Dundee from 9.30am today.
We are expecting to hear from four witnesses:
Dr Maggie Currer, a consultant in emergency medicine. Her evidence began on Friday with questioning from Jane Russell KC, NHS Fife's lawyer.
She was the author of an internal email dated January 5, 2024, circulated to six potential tribunal witnesses and Dr Upton.
The email in question was described as “seriously embarrassing” to NHS Fife as it appeared to coordinate a “small need-to-know group” to avoid “foot in mouth syndrome”, suggesting an attempt to control the narrative among witnesses.
Sandie Peggie, the claimant and nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy. She already gave evidence in February but was recalled by her barrister Naomi Cunningham.
On Monday, we heard explosive evidence from nursing colleagues and former friends of Ms Peggie. They claimed they had witnessed Ms Peggie made racist comments while also referring to Dr Upton as "weirdo", "it", and "freak".
Today will be an opportunity for Ms Peggie to defend her character.
Sandra Ross, a nurse at NHS Fife. She works with Ms Peggie and is part of the 'Benidorm group chat' where Ms Peggie is accused of making racist comments.
She has been called by the claimant's team in defence of Ms Peggie.
Emma Ward, an administrator at Sex Matters. There was some contention over whether Ms Ward's evidence should be heard.
She will be the only witness to give evidence remotely and she will be talking about an anonymous phone call she received from an employee at NHS Fife who raised concerns about the culture at NHS Fife.
Ms Russell said her evidence should not be permitted as it is based on a second hand account. She also argued Sex Matters is not neutral in the case.

I think they'd only be shared by a person who thinks vile and horrible jokes are good to share, because either they think others will think them funny or they like to shock. I'm not sure it's only racist people that would do it, although I'm sure there's a crossover.

This ⬆️

TT
We are due to begin live tweeting day 9 of Peggie v Fife Health Board and Dr Upton at the earlier time of 9.30am. Today is the final day of evidence and will begin with Dr Maggie Currer returning to the witness box.
Tribunal Tweets (@tribunaltweets) | nitter.poast.org

@Chariothorses is the Herald blog only available via a pay wall? I find TT hard to follow at times.

Again though I'm struck by the white man in the women's changing room supposedly being the "most vulnerable" in all of these goings on - the only one that gets all the support and people dancing around him.

I've never seen any other issues treated like that, with such overwhelming support from seniors, managers and directors.

It was in 2022 - Pakistan flooded June to October with 1700 fatalities.