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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #43

1000 replies

nauticant · 25/07/2025 15:21

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence had been intended to be 28 July with 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing was to have ended on 30 July. However, it became apparent as the hearing progressed that this schedule wouldn't be followed.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:
drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025

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39
NebulousSupportPostcard · 26/07/2025 19:31

mrshoho · 26/07/2025 18:39

But how did he manage to get an edit date so far before the original creation datecof the notes? Did he just fuck up when he was doctoring? How inept is this person?

I think it may have been possible to start a new note with wifi switched off and the date set back to August, save it and overlay the "created on" part over the later edit. Obviously that still would never pass the metadata test and it would have left Our Jim puzzled by the slightly darker text, but if executed well, the dates at least could be present and correct.

It looks as though if Upton was trying to decieve the court, he would only have had a short time in which to mess around (even then panicking in case they guessed he had switched his wifi off during a vital Teams meeting!) and it looks as though may have he messed up and created documents in which the edit data was recorded before the creation date.

All complete speculation, Upton may be cleared of suspicion. That is for the Panel to decide.

BriceNobeslovesMurielHeslop · 26/07/2025 19:32

Totallygripped · 26/07/2025 18:44

Off topic but from my experience with ancient but not bed bound mother in acute medical ward of a major London teaching hospital (as seen on TV) it's all OK anyway because of pad so just go in that. Which is probably discussed on other threads...

Not to hijack the thread but that is completely unacceptable- I’m so sorry your mum had to go through that. It’s definitely something that should be raised to PALS or the ward sister, if you can muster it. I’d hit the roof if I found someone treating a patient like that.

BriceNobeslovesMurielHeslop · 26/07/2025 19:33

I wonder how all those smuggos feel about their donations for BU now- there must be a few feeling like prize dickheads.

borntobequiet · 26/07/2025 19:33

I love TP but currently am working my way through Jane Austen. Like Pratchett, you discover something funny that you missed before, every time.

I’d love to have JA do a character sketch of DU. Or describe the interaction between him and NC in the courtroom. Or do justice to JR in pop up screechy mode.

Bannedontherun · 26/07/2025 19:35

The chat was in a face book group, and as the conversation suggest it was a nurses group who were friends.

If the person who posted her hand maidens comments, is the witness on Monday then we can crown her a hang maidens.

We will see.

MyAmpleSheep · 26/07/2025 19:41

@prh47bridge

What's the mechanism for referring to a document in the bundle as evidence? As Jamie Doyle isn't appearing as a witness, what does NC have to do to bring his/her email(s) specifically, to the attention of the panel? Does she just refer to it directly in her closing submissions?

NebulousSupportPostcard · 26/07/2025 19:42

Merrymouse · 26/07/2025 16:34

Can they do that without the agreement of Dr U? Would they have to go through a process to formerly sever the cases?

The Secret Six email chain had in some form later had Upton added to it. From the outset, Upton, the well-connected trustworthy doctor had something massive over them, and they stood to lose either way, I guess. They were people notorious for making bad decisions and some of them only found out at tribunal the extent that each of the others had been a total dick in the process.

At best they could stop calling witnesses but it was up to SP as Claimant to decide whether to accept a settlement and she wouldn't. As a backdrop to all that the CEO and Board are under pressure to resign or find a way to save their jobs. Having already called the witnesses they somehow judged it best to crack on, I guess.

NebulouslyContemporaneous · 26/07/2025 19:42

borntobequiet · 26/07/2025 19:33

I love TP but currently am working my way through Jane Austen. Like Pratchett, you discover something funny that you missed before, every time.

I’d love to have JA do a character sketch of DU. Or describe the interaction between him and NC in the courtroom. Or do justice to JR in pop up screechy mode.

Ooh, yes. I'm thinking that Upton would be a bit like Darcy in that particular meeting in Mr Colin's house, where he is arrogantly justifying all of the snootiest aspects of his behaviour.

Of course, Darcy then goes on to reflect and temper his arrogance. Which is not what will happen here. I'm guessing that there will be a shade of Mr Collins in Upton's inability to reflect on where he might have gone wrong.

Peregrina · 26/07/2025 19:46

I wonder whether this Lindsay who didn't know Beth would think he was 'brave' if she had encountered him in the changing room? I suspect that she and Sandie are no longer friends.

I don't doubt that JR will twist the whole conversation to be against Sandie.

SternlyMatthews · 26/07/2025 19:47

ArealAdultHumanFemale · 26/07/2025 19:26

Be interesting to know who took the FB conversation screenshot.

The article has what looks like screenshots from Google Keep, emails as well as the FB chat, yet the other reports I've seen from the bundle have all said 'transcribed'.
The Times article says "the documents, which can only be read under strict conditions at the tribunal hearing centre in Dundee" , so either they got permission somehow, or transcribed & then photoshopped.

prh47bridge · 26/07/2025 19:48

MyAmpleSheep · 26/07/2025 19:41

@prh47bridge

What's the mechanism for referring to a document in the bundle as evidence? As Jamie Doyle isn't appearing as a witness, what does NC have to do to bring his/her email(s) specifically, to the attention of the panel? Does she just refer to it directly in her closing submissions?

Edited

The fact it is in the bundle means it is evidence. The panel should read the entire bundle, not just the documents referred to in hearings. A barrister will only refer to those documents necessary to make their arguments or support their case.

ArealAdultHumanFemale · 26/07/2025 19:51

SternlyMatthews · 26/07/2025 19:47

The article has what looks like screenshots from Google Keep, emails as well as the FB chat, yet the other reports I've seen from the bundle have all said 'transcribed'.
The Times article says "the documents, which can only be read under strict conditions at the tribunal hearing centre in Dundee" , so either they got permission somehow, or transcribed & then photoshopped.

I meant, which member of the chat took the screenshot?

ForAllWomen · 26/07/2025 19:54

ArealAdultHumanFemale · 26/07/2025 19:51

I meant, which member of the chat took the screenshot?

Sandie will have been asked to disclose all relevant documents - this will include her messages about the case. So Sandie is likely to have provided it herself.

NHS Fife employees have to provide docs in relation to the case - hence all the emails being produced. Sandie does likewise.

Hence don’t put down anything in writing you don’t want produced in Court.

Boiledbeetle · 26/07/2025 19:56

borntobequiet · 26/07/2025 19:33

I love TP but currently am working my way through Jane Austen. Like Pratchett, you discover something funny that you missed before, every time.

I’d love to have JA do a character sketch of DU. Or describe the interaction between him and NC in the courtroom. Or do justice to JR in pop up screechy mode.

So I fed AI my poem, so it's the changing room scene... (and yes I'm going to make you all read the poem first!!) And it duly delivered a Jane Austin adjacent response

A VISIT FROM DR DICK

‘Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the ward
Not a patient was stirring, not even the bored.
The stockings were worn by the man I'll call Bess
In hopes they'd go well with his after work dress.

The patients were settled all drugged in their beds
While visions of presents danced in their heads.
And Sandie was bleeding, right through her clothes
Had just had a flooding, which every lass loathes.

When in to the changing room Sandie did go
I heard she was met by a man who'd never heard no.
Away back through the door was not even a choice
Tore off her upset, and her discomfort did voice.

The man stood his ground and didn't back down
Gave poor Sandie a fright, the six foot tall clown.
When she told him his presence was not the done thing
“But I’m a woman, a lady, I'm a queen not a king.”

With his reasons so creepy and frankly quite odd
I know in my gut that he’s an AGP bod.
More crap from his mouth about how he'd the right
And he whinged and he whined late into the night.

“Now Sandie. Now Sandie. I'm a woman I am
On this I do swear I'm all woman, not man.
To the top of my head, to the tip of my willy
Now take off your clothes, and stop being silly.

As sure as the sun shines in the night sky
When up is now down. Now why would I lie?”
So up with his arms, as he took off his top
With a smile on his face, when his scrub bottoms drop.

And when he was finished Sandie tried to explain
The reasons beyond him, alas ‘twas in vain.
As he walked out the door she shook like a leaf
Down she sank to the ground in instant relief.

He was dressed in his scrubs when she'd gone to get changed
And was wearing his street clothes as words were exchanged.
A man that had been in no danger at all
And could have left at the start now started to bawl.

His eyes they were wet, his demeanour sooo sad
His mission right now, to paint Sandie as bad.
His self-righteous thinking, all the havoc he'd wreak
And that bloody witch, she’d wish she'd never dare speak.

The froth and the bile that would spill from his gob
And his aim in this all - to lose Sandie her job.
He had a phone full of contemporaneous notes
That helped him keep track of his lying and gloats.

He made up his notes about mean terfy Sandie
And saved them for when they might come in handy.
A twist of the knife and a tilt of his head
Soon all would bow down once gossip had spread.

He would show them who's boss, who's cock of the walk
And he’d close down the women, they’d now not dare talk.
And after he'd spoken to a female boss
And spewed out a load of his made up old dross

He was walked to his car to ensure he was 'safe'
And sent on his way, the poor little waif!
But I heard Sandie exclaim as he drove out of sight
"Happy Tribunal you arsehole, and to being proved right.

And asked for a character appraisal of "Bess" in the style of Jane Austin

A Consideration of Mr Bess: In the Style of Miss Austen

It is universally acknowledged that a person in possession of a most unwavering delusion must be in want of attention. Mr Bess, lately arrived upon the ward on the eve of that festive season, exhibited such airs as to invite both astonishment and concern. His entrance, not heralded by propriety, was instead marked by an ensemble unbefitting the time or temperament of the hour—his stockings, chosen with all the solemnity of one preparing for a ball, were not improved by the dress that followed.

Though the other inhabitants of the ward found themselves subdued—some by the influence of medication, others by the enchantment of imagined gifts—Mr Bess appeared untouched by such mortal constraints. He wandered freely, a figure of some height and curious resolve, and inserted himself, quite without invitation, into Sandie’s most private retreat.

Miss Sandie, a gentlewoman well acquainted with affliction and thus deserving of the highest consideration, expressed her wish to dress without the unwanted presence of Mr Bess. Alas, the gentleman—if indeed such a title may be extended—refused all entreaty, holding fast to his claim that he was, by virtue of self-declaration, a woman, a queen, and not, most certainly not, a king.

His argument—delivered with all the pomp of a colonel reporting from battle—devolved rapidly into nonsense. He spoke at length and without cessation, his manner unrelenting and his reasoning befuddled. And when disrobed (a spectacle of unfortunate bravery), he sought not Sandie’s comfort, but her silence, believing that his own discomfort must reign supreme.

Miss Sandie’s appeals to reason were met with tears of dramatic inconvenience, for Mr Bess soon adopted the posture of the wronged. He bewailed her distress, not as a gentleman might—through apology—but as an actor in search of an audience. What followed was a theatrical parade of self-penned notes and spurious grievance, all deployed with the exactitude of one who knows the value of gossip well placed.

And yet, in all his movements, there lay the unmistakable desire not for justice, but for dominion. Women, those sensible creatures whom he sought to silence, found themselves subject to his whims and protestations. He twisted his narrative with such flair as to ensnare even the most judicious of listeners—particularly, it must be said, those in positions of authority.

His departure was choreographed with the dignity of a wronged heroine, and though escorted with great care to his vehicle (lest he suffer some imagined peril), it was Miss Sandie who bore the true weight of the evening’s absurdities.

“Happy Tribunal,” she whispered, as his car disappeared into the darkness. Her words, though softly spoken, echoed with the hope that truth, like virtue, might yet triumph.


RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 26/07/2025 19:57

Cismyfatarse · 26/07/2025 18:34

Haven’t read this yet…..Behind the Sandie Peggie tribunal in WhatsApps, phone notes and emails

https://www.thetimes.com/article/f30df150-a373-41ce-b2d3-c9c52bd3c666?shareToken=fa3ce5c7235e4f79b429d98221fa6f4d

It's presumably a typo from when someone copied from the bundle, but it amused me:

"I explain through teats what has happened and the background."

Another2Cats · 26/07/2025 19:59

Angelabdc · 26/07/2025 18:48

Sorry I read this wrongly- there does not seem to be an easy way to delete a post 😬

If you report the post and ask MNHQ to delete your own post then they will do that.

SternlyMatthews · 26/07/2025 20:00

ArealAdultHumanFemale · 26/07/2025 19:51

I meant, which member of the chat took the screenshot?

ah, sorry, I misunderstood. Will have been Sandie, as her comments are on the right hand side.

DrUptonsWallofSad · 26/07/2025 20:02

Peregrina · 26/07/2025 19:46

I wonder whether this Lindsay who didn't know Beth would think he was 'brave' if she had encountered him in the changing room? I suspect that she and Sandie are no longer friends.

I don't doubt that JR will twist the whole conversation to be against Sandie.

Not necessarily re no longer being friends - I think Lindsay was right to express her concerns which illustrated very clearly how the LGB and the T are often conflated - assuming that Sandie's daughter would be disappointed in her. Maybe Sandie made her think about it a bit more. And disagreement doesn't have to mean the end of a friendship.

Totallygripped · 26/07/2025 20:04

BriceNobeslovesMurielHeslop · 26/07/2025 19:32

Not to hijack the thread but that is completely unacceptable- I’m so sorry your mum had to go through that. It’s definitely something that should be raised to PALS or the ward sister, if you can muster it. I’d hit the roof if I found someone treating a patient like that.

Thank you. I do know it is off topic
The consultant seemed to agree with my words infantilising and demeaning. Anyway this was a bad time with revolving door to that hospital. Other consultant being annoyed at my use of failed discharge when acute readmission two days later. And the young un waltzing into cubicle announcing well multiple co morbitiies. Of course at 4 am you might not say mate walk out think how that might be relevant/sound and then come back. Anyhoo ancient mother still with us
Corker telling me earlier hymn she wants at her funeral. And then how she wants us all to have nice drinks. Toasting her health. Although she would be dead. Sorry to offload!!

NebulousSupportPostcard · 26/07/2025 20:12

tribunalObserver · 26/07/2025 19:26

[eta sorry for the confusion, yes, she says that in the chat] Yes, that's the one, but why does that mean it can't be she who is being called? Not all the witnesses have to know Beth. Maybe JR is calling her to get her to say that SP is well known for her bigoted ideas, or who knows... It may not be, of course, especially given the spelling issue - it's a pretty common name in these parts.

Edited

Someone with a different name who doesn't know Beth seems very remote from the events at hand. Fife doesn't need anon FB nurse group members as supporters, even if they could track them down. They have consultants and heads of nursing who will willingly spout shit under oath. Lindsey Nicoll is a Nurse Practitioner within the Emergency Department. She'll have been called because of her proximity to the events. She may or may not be hostile to Sandie but she will be connected to the known story arc somehow?

Bannedontherun · 26/07/2025 20:13

@Boiledbeetle The Beetle Bird fucking love it.

Love does amazing things to ones literary skills.

borntobequiet · 26/07/2025 20:16

“Her womanly beauty and more than common gracefulness were instantly the theme of general admiration…”
”You know him then?” said Mrs Dashwood.
”You misgender her, Madam.” returned Sir John. “For she is Miss, not Mr, Willoughby, a pleasant, good-humoured lady, and has got the nicest little black bitch of a pointer I ever saw.”

tribunalObserver · 26/07/2025 20:18

NebulousSupportPostcard · 26/07/2025 20:12

Someone with a different name who doesn't know Beth seems very remote from the events at hand. Fife doesn't need anon FB nurse group members as supporters, even if they could track them down. They have consultants and heads of nursing who will willingly spout shit under oath. Lindsey Nicoll is a Nurse Practitioner within the Emergency Department. She'll have been called because of her proximity to the events. She may or may not be hostile to Sandie but she will be connected to the known story arc somehow?

You're probably right, I'll have to possess my soul in patience.

(Btw, I perhaps should have said when I namechanged, I'm not a stranger to FWR and of course I know I'm far from the only observer on here right now - I hadn't thought through how the nn might make it look as though I was claiming that, so sorry if anyone was irked. The way the tribunal makes us use full real names makes me nervous, though, so I took a new nn in an attempt to lessen the chance someone connects my real name with my mn identity because of something I say I saw in the tribunal.)

Another2Cats · 26/07/2025 20:18

Britinme · 26/07/2025 19:30

Going back a bit… another Pratchett and Heyer fan here, and I make jam (but not bread). Any other Jodi Taylor fans here? If you haven’t read her Chronicles of St Mary’s series, you should treat yourselves. First one is called Just One Damned Thing After Another. St Mary’s is an offshoot of the University of Thirsk and they study history in contemporary time.

I think I've listened to it before. Is that the one where they go back in time to when there are dinosaurs at one point?

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