"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 2

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

The last thread ended with Tandora attempting to sidestep the question about what she would say if her daughter had been raped by a trans woman in a female only space and no longer believed that trans women should be in female only spaces as a consequence.

Her last reply was along the lines of, "The same thing I would say if she had been bullied by a green person at school and said she no longer wanted to go to school with green people."

@Tandora can we have a serious answer?

They were clear, thoughtful and relevant. I have tried to set out and explain what it is to be trans multiple times in multiple ways.

Posters so entrenched in their prejudices and fantasies about trans people are not interested in reading or reflecting on them - I have no control over that. Meanwhile, 5 minutes later, they demand again that I explain what being trans is.

Have you explained it in a way that could be used as a definition in legislation?

It should be dictionary definition length at most, not waffling on for several paragraphs.

They were clear, thoughtful and relevant. I have tried to set out and explain what it is to be trans multiple times in multiple ways.
The you will be able to find them, just put them here.

Yes I believe she will win her case. The legal, policy environment at the moment is extremely hostile to trans people. Gender critical feminism has been extremely successful in achieving widespread legal and policy successes - including establishing the status of a 'protected belief' in law - and the situation gets worse by the day. This is a particular moment in time. It will pass.

It would take me a while to first locate the threads - and then locate the posts. It would be easier for me to just set out the entire thing again. I would do so if I believed you had any sincere intention of engaging with it.

This is a particular moment in time. It will pass.

And people will look back and wonder how we got to point where supposedly rational and grown up people went in front of a court of law and claimed not to know what sex they are.

I think we've covered this before. Mumsnet has a global search facility.

No people will look back and wonder with horror at how institutionalised discrimination against trans people became.

Then use it my dear.

Maybe that’s because your ‘explanation’ on what it means to be trans hasn’t made any sense so far, except in your own head. Hence why you get further probing.

You haven’t yet articulated why biological (I’m using this just for you) men should be able take part in biological women’s sports with all the physiological advantages they possess or why they should be able to attend women’s rape crisis sessions, to name a couple of circumstances where women are disadvantaged, or why you put these men above women in EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE, just because they feel differently about themselves.

I can only deduce that you are the adult version of the pick me girls in school, which is quite sad.

She will win her case because women in this country have legal rights which must be upheld.

If you object to female people being legally recognised as a distinct category in law which does not include trans identifying males, and to women having rights attached to being members of the female biological sex, you need to campaign for a change in the law.

Use the correct democratic processes.

Convince your MP to stand up in parliament in front of the general public and say that what trans identifying males want is of such vital importance that female people cannot be allowed to have their own definition in law or any single sex spaces or services which exclude male people who say they are women.

Persuade your MP to say these things and take the risk that their constituents vote them out at the next election.

Get all your friends to do likewise until you've got a majority of MPs willing to take that position in front of the entire country and accept the political risk of prioritising a tiny minority of men over the female half of the population.

Do the necessary work to get the parts of the Equality Act you don't like, the parts that give women sex based rights, repealed and replaced with new, man trans-friendly provisions.

Unless and until you can do that, this will not in fact pass. It will remain the legal status quo in this country and you and all other trans activists will bloody well have to suck it up.

I must have missed the definition of trans that explained how it reduced male pattern offending. Which is odd, because I think I asked several times.

I have read and participated in these threads (up to a point when all I got was "bad pathway") and I honestly don't think you even know what makes a reasoned argument. This is my honest opinion. If you really have a PhD I have no idea how you made it through a viva.
But I have a meeting starting in five minutes and a busy rest of the day. I'm out, but I will come back tonight and see if there is something that is more than just repeated statements of your beliefs.

Uh huh.

Come on. Surely you don't believe having a PhD is proof of being able to make a reasoned argument?

I honestly don't think you even know what makes a reasoned argument. This is my honest opinion.

Again. Thank you for your feedback. You've offered it multiple times.

Again, violence against women and girls is not a natural phenomenon caused by chromosomes. It is a social issue rooted in misogyny, power and patriarchy.

Just before I log into my Teams meeting: you're also not as good at snark as you think you are.

I do not think a person who has been jailed for sexual assault should be jailed in a place where they have access to people who they can further assault.

Thank you @Tandora for answering (this seems to be you saying that Isla Bryson should not be housed in the female prison estate).

However, if a woman of the biological kind is convicted of sexual assault and housed in the female prison estate, then why wouldn’t you support TW like Isla Bryson or Karen White, convicted of sexual assault, also being housed in the female prison estate?

This seems inconsistent with your prior assertions that we ought to allow TW into SSSs. Why not this one (female prison) but women have to accept TW such Beth Upton into other SSSs (female changing rooms)? This doesn’t make sense to me.

I honestly don't think you even know what makes a reasoned argument.

This. A lot of c&p of how "thoughtful" they are though.

thank you for your feedback.

Again I think prisons are a special case and I don't think we should use prison security policy as a blueprint for how we organise society in general.

For prison placement my understanding is that there is an individual assessment carried out as to where to place the person, which takes into consideration everyone's safety (including the perpetrator in question). i believe this is absolutely the correct approach.

As long as that assessment includes, do they have a penis? Nobody with a penis should be imprisoned with female prisoners.

So is it just a coincidence that the majority of these attacks are perpetrated by males?

Not a coincidence no. The majority of attacks are perpetrated by men because of misogyny and patriarchy - this is a social problem, however, with a social cause and a social solution, not an inevitable reality that is imprinted in male chromosomes.