"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Thread 2

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

The last thread ended with Tandora attempting to sidestep the question about what she would say if her daughter had been raped by a trans woman in a female only space and no longer believed that trans women should be in female only spaces as a consequence.

Her last reply was along the lines of, "The same thing I would say if she had been bullied by a green person at school and said she no longer wanted to go to school with green people."

@Tandora can we have a serious answer?

So how do you explain similar male behaviour in the animal world?

The risk assessment absolutely has not worked in this way, as I explained to you earlier.

It's interesting that, even though you mistakenly believe the risks to the women's safety (and not just the trans identifying man's safety) have been taken into account, you seem to be acknowledging that there are some circumstances where you do not think it is appropriate for trans identifying men to be housed in women's prisons.

This is good.

It is progress, of sorts.

It shows that your professed belief that men who say they are women actually are women does actually have some limits.

I suspected this was the case, which is why I didn't believe you when you said you would continue to spout your usual nonsense at your daughter even if she had been raped by a trans identifying man in a women's toilet.

Karen White didn't rape any women in prison, he sexually assaulted them in ways he could just as easily have achieved without a penis.

Right, but trans women are socialised as boys/men (which provides the motive) and they have the physical strength of someone with a male body (which provides the means). This is why, given the opportunity, they continue to pose the same risk to women and girls as other men do.

I didn’t suggest it was ‘caused by chromosomes. It is however perpetrated overwhelmingly by males. Of all sorts. So again why does a male’s ‘transness’ alter the threat they potentially pose?

That's a fair and interesting point. I am not an expert in animal behaviour and hierarchies - I suppose each species has their own social systems and behaviours.

With regard to human beings - I do not believe that male violence is a inevitable reality that is imprinted by the presence of a male chromosome.
If that were the case, would a criminal justice response even be fair? If it were purely instinctively, biologically driven behaviour?
Shouldn't we be looking for a medical cure?
I believe that human beings have control and decision making power in decided how to act in violent ways or otherwise. There is a patter of male violence against women and girls because of misogyny and patriarchy.

Yes, it doesn't really matter what the cause is for the purposes of this discussion.

The fact is that male people commit over 98% of sex offences and trans identifying men offend at at least the same rate as other men.

People who want trans identifying men to be welcome in women's spaces are welcome to turn their energy to stopping male violence against women and girls, and then when they've done that we can have a discussion about whether single sex spaces are still necessary.

In the meantime they can jog on.

Your argument, as I understand it, is that regardless of what being trans is or how it manifests, the reality is that trans women have a male karyotype and that therefore they are more prone to committing VAWG?

This implies that VAWG is driven by karyotype. I don't think it is. It's a social phenomenon driven by patriarchy.

Even if it were driven by karyotype it wouldn't be relevant to a conversation about toilets. Any man or trans woman who is driven to assault a women on account of his SRY genes can do so regardless of what the EA says about what toilets people should use.

The provisions about single sex spaces in the EA are not about preventing VAWG. This is not rational.

Looks like you've just tasked yourself with fixing the problem then.

Come back when that's done.

trans identifying men offend at at least the same rate as other men

You do not have the evidence to support this claim.

It doesn't matter what it's driven by. The fact is that trans women are at least as likely to behave this way as other men.

You do not have the evidence to support this claim.

Yes we do, it's in the prison data.

Over 50% of trans identifying male prisoners convicted of sex crimes compared to only 16% of men generally, and hardly any women.

What do you think accounts for this?

Ah I see. Yesterday was DSDs, today is prisons. Are we doing men in women's sports tommorow?

I'm sure I've seen multiple studies showing that TIM still offend at the same rate as standard men? Anyone have a link?

Mind you, with the fact that the BBC et al have been so determined to describe trans male.offemder as women, if thenpilice have also been doing this, then the stats have possibly already been corrupted.

You cannot extrapolate from prison data to the general population - it's not representative in any way shape or form. It's really, really important people understand this.

If you thought that it were representative and you could extrapolate in this way, you would also generate some very racist conclusions from prison data.

You want to change the way society is organised; in a liberal democracy the onus is on you to prove that males who identify as women have sexual offending rates as low as those of women.

I'm not changing the way society is organised, what I'm advocating for has been the status quo for a very long time.

No it hasn't. Twenty years ago, we were not being asked to accept that men such as Alex Drummond are women.

I think you can. Criminal behaviour leads to criminal convictions, even if there are social reasons for criminality being higher in socially deprived populations.

Data on TIMs offemding patterns not being reduced by transition here:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/html/&ved=2ahUKEwiBlNLq39eOAxWMVUEAHUWvGacQFnoECBkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3smEApzT3e9eCAAcUrziZm

But not legal according to the supreme court ruling.

I think you can

You absolutely cannot.

Criminal justice systems data is hugely biased and not representative of the population. There are systemic racial and other forms of bias in the data.

If you believe you can do this you will generate some very harmful conclusions, including very racist ones.

I am not advocating for anything that is incompatible with the SC ruling.

Here's a suggestion, @Tandora. You could type your notions up in a document & keep it handy.

Then when someone asks you a question you think you've answered before, you'll have your response at your fingertips.

I don't think you'd have any more success in convincing people, but it would save some of the circular ducking & diving, at least.

I have automatic sympathy for anyone entering what they perceive to be the lion's den, having been there myself on numerous occasions concerning this subject - just the other way around; social media spaces, X aside after Elon, are overwhelmingly anti-GC. Or 'realityphobic', as I think of it. I had some hope this would be an interesting exchange. In the end, the irrationality on display by Tandora is just boring. (You're welcome for the feedback.)

@Tandora

You seem to think that because something is "a social norm" that makes it somehow not a real problem for women (people of female karotype).

You are wrong.

The social norms are what lead the people of male karyotype to be "not nice".

That includes phsyical and sexual agression yes, but also the insidious socialisation that lead to entitlement and encrouchment on the male side, and deferment and accomodation on the female side that also does so much harm to the opportunities and enpowerment of people of female karotype.

So as long as those social norms exist, people of female karotype have entirely valid reasons to need some phsyical and cultural spaces and rights that exclude people of male karyotype regardless of how those male people may feel about themselves.

I'm more than happy to work with you towards a world where the social norms have changed to the point that the body in which one was born truly does not determine ones social risks and challanges, but until that day, the protections for female people must stay even if you (like all reasonable people) wish they were not needed.

If you disagree please explain why, not just from the perspective of the male people involved but also considering the experiences and impact on the femle people.