"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Discuss

[dunBle]

To save further derailment of the Sandie Peggie tribunal threads with people debating Tandora's statements on the above theme, I've started this thread to point them to instead.

And irrelevant to ‘what trans really is’ given that there is not now, or has ever been, any call to ‘test for transness’ based on tha apparent many variables of biological sex. “People are who they say they are” and all that.

But being trans isn't a DSD.

ok. So do any of the sex variances you have come across result in functioning gametes that are able to create new life, that are different to the egg and sperm from males and females?

Whatever pathways they develop if we start with the idea that people are either egg or sperm producers then can see that for each and every DSD either they produce eggs or sperm ( female or male) or they don’t in which case most doctors seem pretty clear if they would expect eggs or sperm - they know what has caused egg or sperm production to fail

there is one ( in billions ) person who may have had both - I think we can safely say that doesn’t disprove anything as we haven’t dissected their body to see what happened )

there is one dsd where sperm producers end up so female looking that doctors give them the choice as to who they present as but they are still male

but fundamentally each and every dsd is a male or female just with issues around sexual development

so 2 sexes

a person with one arm isn’t a different type of human and neither is a person with DSD

sinple

It’s relevant to our understanding of sex development, what being “female” is and what it is to be trans . All of these things are relevant to negotiating how we should organise society in a way that reflects both science and justice.

You’re such an expert that you can’t even spell karyotype correctly!
The crucial thing you’re omitting is that female bodies are organised with the potential to produce large gametes and have XX chromosomes, whilst male bodies are organised with the potential to produce small gametes and have XY chromosomes. Someone - male or female - with a DSD may have a variation but still has large or small gametes potential.

Have you ever come across someone who isn’t male or female? I’d love to meet them - just like I’d love to meet a unicorn!

Can someone explain to me please how the existence of DSDs proves that sex is not binary?

Or how the existence of DSDs should mean that a biological male who feelz like a woman should be accepted as such and given access to women-only spaces?

I don't understand the link between DSDs and trans 🤔

I can hypothetically accept Tandora’s theory.

We have people whose body has developed in a stereotypical male/female way, yet epigenetics and hormones means their nervous system responds differently from most.

We also have people with DSDs- people whose physical development didn’t complete consistently.

And of course the majority category- everything happens typically, male or female.

We know a tiny proportion of the second category could go through life unaware of their DSD until they attempt to have children. At that point, it will become apparent.

However, society organises around binary sex - the third category- regardless of that first category. There are manifold reasons for that, and the feelings of the people in that first category are irrelevant. To support their feelings we could redevelop language as they’ve asked, and refer to people who are cis and everyone else.

AT THAT POINT the world would still be organised exactly as it is, around sexed bodies. Single sex spaces would match for cissex and category 2 people would still not be allowed in the space of their choice. They would still need to go to the sexed single space of their body.

So Tandora, it just isn’t relevant. The men with trans identities offend according to their sex body, not their innate specialness. So they still get to go in with all the other men, not with the women.

Big it’s an interesting field of study and I wish you well with it. Let us know when you find something relevant.

Im going to dip out now as exposure to the unpleasantness and childishness of some posters - eg “feelz” - is not good for my mental health.

If anyone wants to contribute with some grown up and thoughtful contributions or questions (eg @bumblingbovine49 or @CatOnAHotRadiator ) I will be happy to engage with them.

x

You think your totally unproven theory about how some male people may have a DSD which makes them women despite having absolutely normal sexual development according to all the markers we use of relevant to our understanding of what female is? Why?

Oh what a surprise. Definitely didn't see that one coming.

This struck me, when I first read it, as a very evasive statement. I have now caught up on the thread and I am not remotely surprised that @Tandora has completely failed to provide any clarity.

It never fails to amaze me to see how perfectly educated people get so lost in (fascinating) detail that they lose sight of the basics.

Your sex denotes which of the two roles you play, or would or could potentially play in sexual reproduction. That's it.

In most cases this is entirely unambiguous because the only question you need to answer is, "does this person produce, or have they ever produced, sperm or eggs?" That's your answer for the vast, vast majority of the population. No further questions needed.

For the remainder who for whatever reason have never produced either, the next question down the flowchart is whether they have, or have ever had, developed either ovaries or testes. The vast, vast majority have one or the other even if they're not producing gametes. Again, end of flowchart. The role they would play in sexual reproduction if and when all was functioning is unambiguous. They could never play the opposite role.

For the vanishingly small remainder who have neither, or have only gonadal streaks (it shouldn't need saying but no human being ever in the history of time has ever developed both sets of gonads due to the nature of the sexual developmental pathway) more investigation may be necessary but the question will remain centered around which role they would have played in sexual reproduction.

All this hand waving about chromosomes and hormones etc. is an interesting but completely tangential discussion of how you arrive at those gametes (and gonads) in the first place, and how their natural function might be damaged or inhibited.

I think it's past time for everyone to take a step back from the trees and have a good look at the wood!

Do you really think I’m going to provide personal details and out myself to you online? Anyway what matters is the substance of the discussion, the accuracy of the scientific information presented and the coherence of the argument. Not what you think or believe you know about my person.

I do think there's terms man and woman pre date any in depth understanding of biology and are in fact just social terms..

Societies vary with time and location, but male and female are standard definitions used to refer not just to humans, but completely different species. You don't need to understand the process of conception to identify which kind of human becomes pregnant.

Yes for the majority of people it might be easy to decide which one of the two matches most.

You don't get to decide. Any ability to control the impact of sex on women - contraception, legal protection from rape in marriage, maternity pay etc. etc. - is very, very recent, hard won and not universally available.

why cause pain to the people for whom it is not that easy?

Why deliberately obfuscate language in a way that makes it more difficult for women to defend their rights? Why cause them pain?

Just so we can keep on pretending there's not more to it and that our understanding hasn't changed?

It really hasn't changed.

I think that a conversation looking into whether or not AGP should be considered a sexual orientation, would be much more relevant to the discussion regarding aspects Transwoman as an identity than DSDs.

So basically, the argument tandora is making is that trans is a special new dsd, not yet fully understood, that affects the brain but somehow no other organ including the reproductive organs or gonads and therefore makes the person the opposite sex despite not being that sex on any of the many dimensions that we were lectured about, and the rest of us can't possibly understand this because we're not clever enough?

How does it affect the brain but absolutely nothing else? And how/why would this evolve?

I thought you said you were leaving

Your sex denotes which of the two roles you play, or would or could potentially play in sexual reproduction. That's it.
But this is way too simplistic (and also kind of religious).

Where does this simplistic/ reductive framework leave women with CAIS for example ? They are infertile. Even the very weird “oh but their body intended to or was organised around (again very religious as if there’s some sort of intentionality or grand design) this wouldn’t work for women with CAIS as they have a male karyotype. They would fit the definition of biological female for the purposes of the SC judgement though.

These aren’t just scientific debates, it’s actually really harmful to insist on these dogmatic truths.

Go on then, what IS it to be ‘trans’? What about the men who have fathered children, reach middle age then suddenly want to wear their wife’s knickers? What scientific reason is it that causes this behaviour? Because it IS a behaviour which we like to call cross-dressing and Stonewall call ‘being trans’. Many cross-dressers have talked about why they do this, and it boils down to being autogynophelia, ie a fetish. And how do you explain detransitioners? If it’s all down to biology, that people are born ‘trans’ then surely there would never be any detransitioners.

Infertility is covered by the word 'potentially'

None of which has convinced me that you know what you’re talking about.

How does it affect the brain but absolutely nothing else? And how/why would this evolve?

It doesn’t affect absolutely nothing else- it affects the body systemically, but not all hormonal variations produce visible differences in gonadal anatomy- that’s why we only discovered tonnes of sex variations with the development of modern scientific technologies.

In terms of how/ why it evolves- through genetic mutations / variations - the same way all forms of biological diversity evolve.

Sorry for my edit fail.

• regarding aspects of Transwoman as an identity...