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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Discuss

1000 replies

dunBle · 23/07/2025 00:12

To save further derailment of the Sandie Peggie tribunal threads with people debating Tandora's statements on the above theme, I've started this thread to point them to instead.

OP posts:
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21
Tandora · 24/07/2025 17:05

Tandora · 24/07/2025 14:54

*You mention karyotype, genes, hormone production, and hormone response, and then suggest that all of these somehow blur the boundaries of biological sex. In reality, sex is a binary developmental pathway, rooted in genetics and organised by tightly regulated embryonic processes. Humans start with bipotential gonads and both Müllerian and Wolffian duct systems. At around week 7 of gestation, the presence or absence of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome initiates either male or female development.

If SRY is present, it activates genes like SOX9, triggering testis development. The testes then produce Anti-Müllerian Hormone (AMH) to regress the Müllerian ducts and testosterone to stabilize the Wolffian ducts, forming male internal structures. If SRY is absent (in an XX embryo), the gonads develop into ovaries by default, the Müllerian ducts persist, and the Wolffian system regressesed.*

Sort of, but actually not quite - especially the second parag.

You also falsely imply that hormone balances and the body’s response to them drive gonadal development. That’s completely backwards! Gonadal development is driven by genetic signals, and the hormones come afterward. Testes or ovaries produce the hormones, not the other way around. Mutations that alter hormone receptors (like in CAIS or 5-alpha reductase deficiency) do affect the external phenotype, but they are disorders of sexual development within a binary system, not evidence of a third (or fourth/fifth/sixth) sex.

By gonadal development I was referring to the reproductive system at large. This development is driven by hormones. Specifically, the development of the testes and ovaries, along with the development of internal and external genitalia, is largely controlled by hormones produced by the developing gonads themselves, as well as hormones secreted by the pituitary gland.

Your reference to the brain and psychosexual development is a red herring. Yes, sex hormones affect some sexually dimorphic brain regions, particularly in utero. But these effects are statistical— not categorical — and are modulated heavily by neuroplasticity and environment.

Yes.

Brain imaging studies don’t support the idea of a “trans brain”

I'm not saying that there is anything as simple as the 'trans brain', don't be silly. But there are studies that have show differences in various measures in brains of trans people compared to cisgender controls. Obviously as with any area of science relating to understanding the complex, adaptive systems of the brain and cognition, our understanding is in its infancy.

and certainly don’t overturn the definition of biological sex.

Ideological and meaningless statement.

Got to run but can respond to the rest later.

Edited

Sorry I typed this really quickly because I was off to an appointment. I said "not quite" but didn't expand-
for example the idea that ovaries develop "by default" in the absence of SRY - this is outdated, textbook speak. Ovarian differentiation in utero is an active process, involving a complex network of gene activity and signalling molecules.

The biology of human sex development is really really complex and there is a lot of variability.

cloudyblueglass · 24/07/2025 17:07

Tandora · 24/07/2025 16:52

Yes I believe the Supreme Court judgement has been widely wildly misinterpreted , and that misinterpretation needs urgently to be challenged as a matter of law.

I'm not interested in a broader conversation about who should have the right to use what toilet based on my opinion on that versus yours. It's not an interesting conversation, nor is it useful/ productive when there is still so much misunderstanding and prejudice directed at trans people.

You’re not interested in a wider conversation on the implications of men being housed with women in prisons, or on hospital wards, or pitted against women in rugby or boxing or football etc etc…

Thank you for showing yourself.

KateShugakIsALegend · 24/07/2025 17:08

KateShugakIsALegend · 24/07/2025 16:45

Ok, to summarise, @Tandora and @suggestionsplease1 :

  • You feel that probably most or all (not sure which) trans people have a medical reason for being trans. Is this right?
  • You believe there is extensive research to support this view, but have yet to cite it or provide links. Is this right? Have I missed the links?
  • Is BeLemonNow's summary of your thinking on this point correct (page 27)?
  • You believe that the tiny percentage of people currently diagnosed with DSD fall within this group (see above) of trans people (or do you think they are a separate group?)

Please correct my understanding if incorrect.

Now here's the thing:

  • why does any of the above mean that this small percentage of trans women (men at birth) have a right to be in a space for women if women don't want them there?
Edited

@Tandora ? @suggestionsplease1 ?

Tandora · 24/07/2025 17:09

cloudyblueglass · 24/07/2025 17:03

What would happen to individuals with CAIS if the medical profession decided that they were indeed female and couldn’t possibly be having a pile of testosterone running around their body that is useless to them, and thus there was no medical basis for them to receive necessary treatment - which would effectively leave them without sufficient sex hormones of any kind?

What would happen to individuals with CAIS if the medical profession decided that they were indeed female

Eh? I think you are very confused about what the "medical profession" "think". They assign people with CAIS female and prescribe female hormones.

Tandora · 24/07/2025 17:09

cloudyblueglass · 24/07/2025 17:07

You’re not interested in a wider conversation on the implications of men being housed with women in prisons, or on hospital wards, or pitted against women in rugby or boxing or football etc etc…

Thank you for showing yourself.

Correct. I am not interested in this. Because it is a completely unreasonable conversation in the current climate where there is so much misunderstanding of and prejudice towards trans people.

teksquad · 24/07/2025 17:10

Tandora · 24/07/2025 16:57

It made me feel quite ill the thought that there are individuals determined to persistently and insistently impose the label "male" on women's with CAIS, yes. That attitude needs to be challenged - so challenge it I did.

There are many individual users who I don't bother reading posts from or replying to. There are some posters - a few - who engage in more interesting and productive ways - although tbf often that doesn't last.

I still think it's worth having the conversation, and when people ask me questions I think I can usefully reply to, I am driven to do so. For the sake of trans people, people living with DSDs and all humans in general.

what about women?

People with a male karyotype are male.

EdithStourton · 24/07/2025 17:10

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/07/2025 16:23

Were you not just telling us that being trans is a hitherto undiscovered DSD found in the brain?

That was my impression.

#baffled

Tandora · 24/07/2025 17:11

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/07/2025 17:02

Why do you think you understand the law better than the country's finest legal experts?

Earlier you were claiming that your expertise in some mysterious and unspecified yet relevant area of scientific research means that you are more qualified to talk about biological sex than the rest of us.

Well...I'm a lawyer.

There's a whole thread on why the Supreme Court judgement has been wildly misinterpreted where the legal arguments were hashed out. I believe you were on it. Go forth and read.

Tandora · 24/07/2025 17:12

teksquad · 24/07/2025 17:10

what about women?

People with a male karyotype are male.

People with a male karyotype are male.

No. People with a male karyotype have a male karyotype. A karyotype is not a person.
Most of the time, having a male karyotype leads to the development of a male person. Sometimes it doesn't.

KateShugakIsALegend · 24/07/2025 17:13

@Tandora is there a reason you are not responding?

Can I help?

Tandora · 24/07/2025 17:14

KateShugakIsALegend · 24/07/2025 17:13

@Tandora is there a reason you are not responding?

Can I help?

It's not a helpful summary.

KateShugakIsALegend · 24/07/2025 17:15

Tandora · 24/07/2025 17:14

It's not a helpful summary.

Ah, ok. Which bit is unhelpful?

crazysnakess · 24/07/2025 17:15

Tandora · 24/07/2025 17:09

What would happen to individuals with CAIS if the medical profession decided that they were indeed female

Eh? I think you are very confused about what the "medical profession" "think". They assign people with CAIS female and prescribe female hormones.

How do they know those hormones are needed?

cloudyblueglass · 24/07/2025 17:15

Tandora · 24/07/2025 17:09

Correct. I am not interested in this. Because it is a completely unreasonable conversation in the current climate where there is so much misunderstanding of and prejudice towards trans people.

Ok.,

thank you.

Women are unreasonable to ask for privacy and safety.

Got it.

Tandora · 24/07/2025 17:16

crazysnakess · 24/07/2025 17:15

How do they know those hormones are needed?

Because they have CAIS, and while their bodies produce some oestrogen it's not enough for healthy development.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/07/2025 17:16

Tandora · 24/07/2025 17:11

There's a whole thread on why the Supreme Court judgement has been wildly misinterpreted where the legal arguments were hashed out. I believe you were on it. Go forth and read.

I did, because I was on it.

I explained to you at great length why the judgment, and the way in which it has been interpreted by people of far more brains and consequence than you, is correct.

Tandora · 24/07/2025 17:16

cloudyblueglass · 24/07/2025 17:15

Ok.,

thank you.

Women are unreasonable to ask for privacy and safety.

Got it.

Nope that's not what I said. I'm a woman with girls, and privacy and safety is important to me.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/07/2025 17:18

Tandora · 24/07/2025 17:16

Nope that's not what I said. I'm a woman with girls, and privacy and safety is important to me.

But the privacy and safety of women who don't want to get changed in front of people like Beth Upton is clearly not important to you.

Tandora · 24/07/2025 17:18

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/07/2025 17:16

I did, because I was on it.

I explained to you at great length why the judgment, and the way in which it has been interpreted by people of far more brains and consequence than you, is correct.

Yes, and I won't say what I thought of your arguments as it would be too rude lol.

But the point is - that conversation was hashed out - mostly between me and a barrister who actually engaged productively, and I see no benefit to bringing it here, so I'm not about to.

KateShugakIsALegend · 24/07/2025 17:19

@Tandora which bit was unhelpful?

Would it help if I posted them one by one?

Tandora · 24/07/2025 17:19

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/07/2025 17:18

But the privacy and safety of women who don't want to get changed in front of people like Beth Upton is clearly not important to you.

I wholeheartedly support Beth Upton correct. I don't believe that she compromised the privacy or safety of any woman.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/07/2025 17:19

Tandora · 24/07/2025 17:09

Correct. I am not interested in this. Because it is a completely unreasonable conversation in the current climate where there is so much misunderstanding of and prejudice towards trans people.

So what, vulnerable women currently at risk of being seriously sexually assaulted or raped by trans identifying male prisoners in a women's prison need to wait until the rest of us in the non prison population are kinder to trans people before we can even have a conversation about their safety?

I beg to differ.

It is a conversation of vital importance which will be more productive if you are not involved in it, so feminists and politicians can have that conversation and you can be quiet and go and, I don't know, knit scarves in the colours of the trans flag or something.

DialSquare · 24/07/2025 17:20

Tandora · 24/07/2025 17:16

Nope that's not what I said. I'm a woman with girls, and privacy and safety is important to me.

But due to your beliefs, that could mean you are actually a man with sons. This is the problem.

cloudyblueglass · 24/07/2025 17:20

Tandora · 24/07/2025 17:09

What would happen to individuals with CAIS if the medical profession decided that they were indeed female

Eh? I think you are very confused about what the "medical profession" "think". They assign people with CAIS female and prescribe female hormones.

No.

You are incorrect.

Medicine recognises that they are androgen insensitive males, generally around the time that periods fail to start (with underdeveloped and undescended testes - note, the female sex cannot have testes) with a female phenotype as a result and need supportive medications.

Tandora · 24/07/2025 17:22

DialSquare · 24/07/2025 17:20

But due to your beliefs, that could mean you are actually a man with sons. This is the problem.

No it really couldn't.

This is your own misunderstanding and projection. Hence me feeling compelled to speak about these issues on mumsnet, to try and combat some of this misunderstanding and prejudice.

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