"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Discuss

[dunBle]

To save further derailment of the Sandie Peggie tribunal threads with people debating Tandora's statements on the above theme, I've started this thread to point them to instead.

Interesting so if I understand even though the physical number is less, it is higher proportion compared to the general population.

It would be interesting whether is causation (i.e. being a sex offender makes you more likely to be trans) or a correlation (opportunistic transition).

Yes. The oblivious condescension.
In all of the many threads and posts on here over the years respectfully and accurately exploring the realities of DSDs and sexual dimorphism in humans, I have never seen anyone becoming remotely angry about CAIS.

i suspect what you actually mean is that posters have given you short shrift for using the existence of extremely rare DSDs such as CAIS to try to make a poor argument about sex being hard to define.

I believe it goes something like “differences of sexual development exist therefore people without these conditions can change sex”?

The oblivious condescension.

The main way this manifests is seeing the common and everyday aspects of sex as just too boring, and obsessively focusing on the 'inner truth'. Even when totally irrelevant, as per 'trans'.

As an analogy, it's like someone who thinks of themselves as a profound physicist because they know of special relativity, and that Newton's laws of motion are only approximations.

Of course, lots of other people know this, but don't bring it up when considering everyday issues because it's irrelevant. And unsurprisingly get exasperated when the wannabe 'profound thinker' keeps interjecting with 'but if your relative velocity approaches the speed of light'.

But for the 'profound thinker', they can only ever discuss the errors in Newton's laws. Or facts about males and females. To discuss the far larger accuracies would be beneath them.

Someone discussing 99.99999% of the truth and ignoring 0.00001% shows themselves to be ignorant.

Continually interjecting about 0.00001% of the truth and ignoring 99.99999% of it shows you to be profound and smart.

A childishly stupid way to approach things. Narcissistic, even. With negative practical value to society.

I had been feeling the above was maybe a tad harsh, but I've just been catching up with the SP thread and hit this.

Disappointed in this over-simplification from a paediatrician. Luckily you have more informed colleagues .

Now feeling I wasn't harsh enough.

These multidimensional galloping phenomena doo das, do they result in anything other than male or female humans?

If not, why not?

Please provide references in your answer.

As others have said, Sex is binary.
The "multidimensional variables" may be traits that are affected by sex: height, hormone levels, size or shape of reproductive organs etc, but they are not your sex.

Tandora's argument that psychosexual development is rooted in someone's genetics, may be true or not. Many physical and mental health conditions are a caused by a mixture of genetic and environmental factors. But it's irrelevant. If a male has genetics that make them more likely to wish to be female, or think of themselves as female, or even at a long stretch, have a brain more typical of females than males, that doesn't make them in any way female.

To be fair, it wasn’t so much a debate as @tandora being told they were wrong and not accepting it. No one sane believes that batshittery.

Can you specify "field" ?

Hi @Tandora

Accepting the multi dimensionality of sex on a multi variable level.

Do you recommend that biological men on a spectrum of multi dimensions who also have penises should use changing rooms where there are multi variable women and female children naked without any restrictions?

While we wait for that stepping up to occur, single sex spaces remain necessary.

So this is what I mean when I say sex is multidimensional and not just one thing. For these women we can say that their chromosomal sex is male, but phenotypically they are female . For most people all of the different components of sex align in one of two binary typologies. For a small number of individuals there are variations across the different components of sex that result in unusual compositions of the different components of sex.

Thank you xx

So according to you, no one can truly know if they are a woman or a man, so all these males with a trans identity claiming they are women are wrong. Unless…
any male claiming a trans identity must as part of getting a GRC get his chromosomes tested. If they come back male…. He’s not allowed a GRC. Sorted.

If you a dairy farmer and wanted to pick your best 2 animals to breed more animals for your herd.... how would you know which ones to put together?

If you wanted to check which young calves to keep for milking and which to remove as unsuitable for milking, would you be able to tell which was which?

Horses.... If you own a riding stable and want to pick animals that you can keep together in a field with no risk of pregnancy and minimal aggression would you exclude mares, geldings or stallions from your field?

It's really just that simple.

Yes the intricacies of everything else is fascinating and the ways in which individuals are unique can be celebrated... but it doesn't stop the day to day reality of what biological sex is for/ why it exists / why our society has arranged around it.

None of these rare genetic disorders change the fact that there are only 2 sex developmental pathways that humans beings can go down and they are mutually exclusive.

It literally means exactly this. It’s completely absurd and baffling to say otherwise.

DSDs happen where there is a variation in the typical developmental pathway, such that people’s bodies develop characteristics that combine some elements of one pathway and some elements of the other.

There’s a great YouTube video of someone discussing what @NecessaryScene so articulately lays out.

Someone is lying on a train track and your basic knowledge of physics tell you it is wise to remove them from the oncoming train to avoid injury. The theoretical physicist comes along and starts blathering about niche concepts and exceptions regarding force and mass and gravity. So lets the person gets squashed.
Sex and gender and DSDs are all very interesting but shouldn’t detract us from the reality of phenotypically and genotypically standard males posing a threat to women.
I also love ‘The Taliban know what a woman is*

No, human fetuses are not default female.

The beauty of nature is that she allows beings to live despite miscodings and other " mistakes".

And yet, evolution has resulted in two distinct physical sexes in mammals (and large swathes of the rest of the phylogenetic tree), two very distinct types of gametes and two types of bodies (with some variations) that produce these gametes. Evolution gives fuck all about the feeling in someone's head or the law or about being kind or if an individual is happy or not.

This fucking fallacy will never go away, I fear.

So what are these other sexual pathways called, what are the gametes they produce and what is their role in reproduction? And PS the fact people with DSD exist does not mean men can be women.

for a good while was the scientific orthodoxy but development in genetics and other fields we realise that things are actually more complicated than that- (things are always more complicated than we realise) development of the female reproductive system is an active process

I guess people just don’t want to hear things that challenge their very entrenched prejudices.

I now have Alanis Morissette as today's earworm.

well they have all kinds of names, depending on the specific variation.

What gametes they produce will depend on their specific variation - some may produce none at all.

That's nice, hun, by "field" do you mean sociology?

Yes, biological systems are complicated but the claim that human fetuses are by default female is still bollocks, Emma Hilton has a good breakdown of this.
Claiming something is complicated doesn't allow you to misrepresent it.