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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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"Biological sex is a multidimensional variable with various components" - Discuss

1000 replies

dunBle · 23/07/2025 00:12

To save further derailment of the Sandie Peggie tribunal threads with people debating Tandora's statements on the above theme, I've started this thread to point them to instead.

OP posts:
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21
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/07/2025 16:50

anyolddinosaur · 23/07/2025 16:47

People with dsd have said many times that they are not trans and resent being used in these discussions. Yet Tandora insists the discussion must be all about them. Evidence for their opinions is sadly lacking and we are all expected to go and search for it. Of course the reason for saying that is because the evidence does not exist.

There is a mass of research on dsds, of course, but it doesnt support Tandora's opinions.

The discussion has to be about them to avoid talking about Karen White and Lia Thomas.

WarriorN · 23/07/2025 16:50

From following that neuroscientist, There’s no evidence that it’s a neurological condition beyond some markers for same sex attraction and self perception, as with people with body dysmorphia and anorexia.

the diagnostic criteria is based on descriptions of highly stereotyped behaviour usually socially linked to members of the opposite sex and dissatisfaction with their body.

of course, many people are dissatisfied with their bodies and many people also quite happily gender non conforming.

CapeGooseberry · 23/07/2025 16:52

Treat... them according to their experience of sex, and not what we are able to externally "observe"/deduce about their sex based on observation at birth.

Men who demand others pretend they are women are experiencing their male sex.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/07/2025 16:52

FlirtsWithRhinos · 23/07/2025 16:49

@Tandora

Treating them according to their experience of sex, and not what we are able to externally "observe"/deduce about their sex based on observation at birth.

Very happy to treat them according to their "experience of sex".

And ti that end, it is important to realise that a trans women's "experience of sex" is fundamentally different to mine, so much so that the two are entirely unrelated. I have no more in common with a trans women's experience of sex than I do with what you would call a cis man.

My "experience of sex" is simply the lived experience of being of the boring simplistic type of female. The capabilities of the body, growing to self awareness within the historic and cultural constructions around that body and how they intersect with my self knowledge and others' reactions to and expectations of me. It is entirely predicated not
on some sort of a priori knowledge of being "a woman" but the opposite, a blank slate forming into consciousness within the fact of the body.

So given that, will you acknowledge that my experience of my own sex is nothing to do with whatever trans women experience, my experience of sex is also valid?

To take the analogy of "Hunger", I cannot know if you and I experience hunger the same way. Perhaps the physical feeling of Hunger for you is like the physical feeling of Itch to me.

However what we can see is that your Hunger and my Hunger have the same consequences. Food relieves it, no food increases it, if it is ignored or unsatied for too long, there is death of a specific type that can be measured and identified as starvation even though I am no longer around to tell the tale.

And we can therefore say that my Hunger and your Hunger are the same thing, and are different to Thirst, not because we know the subjective experiences are the same but because the outcomes and consequences are.

And this is how I know that a TW's experience of sex is not meaningfully related to what I experience. Not because I know how he feels, but because the outcomes and consequences are so different.

This.

The only experience trans women have of their sex is being male. Which means we treat them as male.

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 23/07/2025 16:55

TRAs like to mention DSDs inter alia because people with certain DSDs must have medical treatment around the age of puberty (or make a positive decision not to have treatment), because, having mixed sex attributes, they have no choice in the matter. So it normalises the idea of giving unnecessary and dangerous treatments to otherwise normal, healthy children without DSDs.

Beowulfa · 23/07/2025 16:56

CorvusPurpureus · 23/07/2025 16:23

If you believe 'being trans' has a physiological basis, @Tandora, how do you feel about researching it with the goal of developing a test/diagnostic?

FWIW, I completely disagree with your premise here, but would this be a legitimate line of research in your eyes?

Then we could perhaps test people who are gender questioning, & guide them to appropriate treatment pathways. What do you think?🧐

Would the likes of Pips Bunce and Eddie Izzard really sign up to be tested for a scientific basis to their need to dress like Bet Lynch on certain days of the week?

How would India Willoughby take a negative result I wonder?

WarriorN · 23/07/2025 16:58

yes, it’s their imagined experience of what it’s like to be the opposite sex.

hence no evidence found of gender identity in brains.

teksquad · 23/07/2025 16:59

They don't have mixed sex attributes. They have ambiguous or incorrect secondary sex characteristics due to their DSD. Their sex is clear. In extreme case like CAIS, it might make more sense for them to live as the incorrect sex. And they certainly have a claim to that, unlike normal XY men who just decide they 'feel' like women.

https://theparadoxinstitute.org/read/sex-development-charts

Sex Development Charts — Paradox Institute

A series of flow charts showing the steps of sex development for typical males and females and a variety of DSDs.

https://theparadoxinstitute.org/read/sex-development-charts

FlirtsWithRhinos · 23/07/2025 17:00

Tandora · 23/07/2025 16:16

The only people 'weaponising' people with DSDs is you and others trying to use them and your relationship to them to silence discussion.

I'm simply discussing the realities of sex development which is essential in any conversation where people are making ideological claims about sex.

Edited
Show quote history

Hi Tandora

I don't make ideological claims about sex, I just make pragmatic practical ones.

Female people, of the boring type recognised as female all the day long, suffer consequences because of that that are based on the fact of our bodies and the history of sexism we face, and those things do not change for us one iota because someone somewhere else has a very rare DSD.

Therefore, as long as society continues to disadvantage us based on our being recognised as the boring everyday terribly simplistic type of female, as a boring everyday terribly simplistic type of female I will continue to need language, rights and protections based on the same.

Not ideological, terribly boring and pragmatic really. I'm almost ashamed that my oppression is such a dull and every day one. But there we are. Everyday, boring sexism still exists I'm afraid.

DrBlackbird · 23/07/2025 17:01

WarriorN · 23/07/2025 16:35

The two bolded quotes @DrBlackbird

Yes, agree that those are imaginary ie in someone’s head. Not material physical reality.

teksquad · 23/07/2025 17:04

People with CAIS have undescended testicles. It is only their secondary sex characteristics that look female due to lack of functional testosterone receptors.

theparadoxinstitute.org/read/sex-development-charts?gallery=3172116646539824925976&item=66b18f88dd68d210e74617c6

Helleofabore · 23/07/2025 17:04

FlirtsWithRhinos · 23/07/2025 16:49

@Tandora

Treating them according to their experience of sex, and not what we are able to externally "observe"/deduce about their sex based on observation at birth.

Very happy to treat them according to their "experience of sex".

And ti that end, it is important to realise that a trans women's "experience of sex" is fundamentally different to mine, so much so that the two are entirely unrelated. I have no more in common with a trans women's experience of sex than I do with what you would call a cis man.

My "experience of sex" is simply the lived experience of being of the boring simplistic type of female. The capabilities of the body, growing to self awareness within the historic and cultural constructions around that body and how they intersect with my self knowledge and others' reactions to and expectations of me. It is entirely predicated not
on some sort of a priori knowledge of being "a woman" but the opposite, a blank slate forming into consciousness within the fact of the body.

So given that, will you acknowledge that my experience of my own sex is nothing to do with whatever trans women experience, my experience of sex is also valid?

To take the analogy of "Hunger", I cannot know if you and I experience hunger the same way. Perhaps the physical feeling of Hunger for you is like the physical feeling of Itch to me.

However what we can see is that your Hunger and my Hunger have the same consequences. Food relieves it, no food increases it, if it is ignored or unsatied for too long, there is death of a specific type that can be measured and identified as starvation even though I am no longer around to tell the tale.

And we can therefore say that my Hunger and your Hunger are the same thing, and are different to Thirst, not because we know the subjective experiences are the same but because the outcomes and consequences are.

And this is how I know that a TW's experience of sex is not meaningfully related to what I experience. Not because I know how he feels, but because the outcomes and consequences are so different.

Yes. I read "their experience of sex' and I thought, well of course, because people who are male with transgender identities are male sex and should be treated accordingly.

That is their only experience of sex. It is illogical to think it could be anything other than them having only the experience of being male people. It is never that of being a 'female person' no matter how many times they claim this is true.

Helleofabore · 23/07/2025 17:06

“Should a psychological idea take precedence over a physical fact?” — Dr. Paul McHugh, Distinguished Services Professor, Johns Hopkins University School of Medical

https://x.com/stellaomalley3/status/1945881924389806122?s=46

Full interview

https://x.com/stellaomalley3/status/1945881924389806122?s=46

Tandora · 23/07/2025 17:08

EdithStourton · 23/07/2025 16:22

Oh, no no no no.
People with DSDs have asked REPEATEDLY not to be dragged into this.

Until you can actually show that being trans is a DSD of the brain, perhaps the humane thing to do would be to leave them out of it.

Show quote history

“people with dsds” are a massively diverse collective of people the vast majority of whom are entirely unknown to you.

i perfectly understand why some individuals wouldn’t want to be associated with a political debate as toxic as the trans one- that’s totally understandable.

However, we have to be able to talk about and describe the realities of sex development as is absolutely vital to conversations about sex/ gender / sex variance and transness. It’s also vital for improving understanding of and acceptance for people with DSDs.

No matter how much you try you cannot shut down discussion of science and biology in this way.

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 23/07/2025 17:10

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/07/2025 16:13

So no sex based rights for women then. And no acknowledgement of our existence in law.

Show quote history

No fair or safe sport, no legal protection against discrimination based on female biology, no definition of VAW&G, no privacy and dignity, no women's prisons, no consideration for the fact that men commit 98% of sex crimes all based on @Tandora s totally unproven theory that trans women might have some as yet undefined DSD. Even if that were true (in the face of zero evidence) why on earth should we throw away women's rights and their safety to reclassify sex on feeling rather than physicality when it is physically characteristics that an impact?

Still waiting by the way @Tandora do my pre teen nieces have the right to single sex spaces?

WarriorN · 23/07/2025 17:10

But a DSD isn’t a trans identity is it?

so what is trans?

teksquad · 23/07/2025 17:16

Tandora · 23/07/2025 17:08

“people with dsds” are a massively diverse collective of people the vast majority of whom are entirely unknown to you.

i perfectly understand why some individuals wouldn’t want to be associated with a political debate as toxic as the trans one- that’s totally understandable.

However, we have to be able to talk about and describe the realities of sex development as is absolutely vital to conversations about sex/ gender / sex variance and transness. It’s also vital for improving understanding of and acceptance for people with DSDs.

No matter how much you try you cannot shut down discussion of science and biology in this way.

Edited
Show quote history

Ok, so you can talk about all the people with DSD and all the many people who claim a trans identity, but we can't. Seems fair.

teksquad · 23/07/2025 17:17

"No matter how much you try you cannot shut down discussion of science and biology in this way."

LOL, is it opposites day? 😄

WarriorN · 23/07/2025 17:18

A DSD is a biological reality

trans is imagining that life as the opposite sex via surgery and hormones is going to be better than their current life. And getting these interventions to help everyone else imagine they’re the opposite sex.

I would appreciate a critique of the above

Igneococcus · 23/07/2025 17:23

So, do I get this right; "sex" isn't a correct scientific term but "transness" is?

Tandora · 23/07/2025 17:23

teksquad · 23/07/2025 17:16

Ok, so you can talk about all the people with DSD and all the many people who claim a trans identity, but we can't. Seems fair.

Show quote history

I didn’t say you can’t talk about them, I said you can’t stop others talking about the realities of sex development

CorvusPurpureus · 23/07/2025 17:24

Beowulfa · 23/07/2025 16:56

Would the likes of Pips Bunce and Eddie Izzard really sign up to be tested for a scientific basis to their need to dress like Bet Lynch on certain days of the week?

How would India Willoughby take a negative result I wonder?

Show quote history

well, quite. So I'm wondering what difference Tandora thinks it makes whether identifying as trans has a physiological cause.

ISTR there were howls of TRA outrage when someone wanted ho research it...

Tandora · 23/07/2025 17:25

Igneococcus · 23/07/2025 17:23

So, do I get this right; "sex" isn't a correct scientific term but "transness" is?

There’s nothing wrong with the term sex, you just have to understand what it means when you use it- which is a complex, system of development with multiple components and lots of variations.

WarriorN · 23/07/2025 17:26

Tandora · 23/07/2025 17:25

There’s nothing wrong with the term sex, you just have to understand what it means when you use it- which is a complex, system of development with multiple components and lots of variations.

Show quote history

that sounds more like imagination

Annoyedone · 23/07/2025 17:26

Tandora · 23/07/2025 16:16

The only people 'weaponising' people with DSDs is you and others trying to use them and your relationship to them to silence discussion.

I'm simply discussing the realities of sex development which is essential in any conversation where people are making ideological claims about sex.

Edited
Show quote history

Ooh did you find the names of the other sexes yet?

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