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Original poster

DH -v- The WI, Thread 2

703 replies

Another2Cats · 22/07/2025 07:33

@RareGoalsVerge rightly pointed out (thank you) on my previous thread that it was getting near the limit and that I should start a second thread, so this is it.

This is a link to the first thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5333650-an-update-to-the-wi-announcement-thread-my-dh-just-got-a-reply-to-his-application-to-join-them

So, a recap.

DH has long had an interest in a couple of activities that were only offered locally by the WI. Obviously, it never crossed his mind to try and join as the WI is a woman only organisation - or so he thought.

But then, following the FWS case, the WI made an announcement that they would continue accepting trans identifying men (TIM) as members.

I suggested to DH that he could now join the WI and jokingly said (although it wasn't really funny, I'm not good at jokes) that he wouldn't have to bother with a wig and lippy any more.

So DH applied to join the local federation and was rejected.

Various things then happened and DH is now bringing a sex discrimination claim against the WI.

The WI instructed a big Tier 1 London law firm, one of the partners of which then called DH and explained that they would be relying on section 158, Equality Act and invited him to withdraw his claim.

After that they sent a letter to DH stating that in addition to the section 158 defence it was also the case that the WI "does not purport to establish single sex membership within the meaning of the EqA"

They went on to say:

"As such, it is free to define “women who have reached the Age of Majority” within its Membership Rules as it pleases, as long as its definition is not discriminatory. As we explain below, the definition “women who live as women, including transgender women” is not discriminatory."

They also said that their membership policy does not discriminate on the grounds of sex or render reassignment and that:

"The Membership Policy does not exclude anyone on these grounds. It allows for the admission of “biological” men as members, as long as they are living as women. It also allows for the admission of people who are not trans, as long as they are living as women."
.

So that is where we are as of today. The next step in the process will be in early August so there probably won't be any substantive update to the thread until then.

But, as I said earlier, even though I don't always reply to every post I do read every single comment (often more than once) and having people take an interest really does make a difference. Thank you.
.

PS In their letter, they put quotation marks around the word biological - "biological" (see above). Both DH and I were rather confused by this and thought that they were perhaps quoting him in the Particulars of Claim, but DH hadn't used that term.

On looking at the letter in more detail, the answer was found in one of the footnotes. They said:

2 Where references are made to “biological” sex in in this letter, quotation marks are used to make it clear that we refer to the term as used by the Supreme Court in FWS, to mean sex as recorded at birth. This is not a term that NFWI would otherwise use itself, because sex (including the sex of trans and intersex people) is not binary in this way.

[emphasis added]

Well, it's going to be interesting to hear that point argued in court. DH did make a point in the Particulars of Claim to keep referring to "men with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment", perhaps this annoyed them a bit?

An update to the WI Announcement thread. My DH just got a reply to his application to join them. | Mumsnet

This is not a thread about a thread, but recently there was a thread about the Womens Institute announcement that they would not be implementing the S...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5333650-an-update-to-the-wi-announcement-thread-my-dh-just-got-a-reply-to-his-application-to-join-them

OP posts:
Thread gallery
24
BezMills · 24/12/2025 15:33

@Another2Cats wow thanks to you and your husband for everything!

Talkinpeace · 24/12/2025 15:42

I hope for both your sakes that the local U3A can be persuaded to set up a morning bridge group that he can join.

Well done on getting the WI rules changed.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 24/12/2025 16:04

U3A is only for retired people. No help for a shift worker.

qwertyqwertymnbv · 24/12/2025 16:05

Huge thanks to you and your DH for your sterling efforts this year. I bet you didn't have "get a national institution to change its policy" on your New Year's Resolutions for 2025! What's for 2026? 😂

Stopbringingmicehome · 24/12/2025 18:11

U3A retired and semi retired , I bet a shift workers might find a place there. There is no age limit but

Stopbringingmicehome · 24/12/2025 18:12

Thank you to your DH for taking a stand

Greyskybluesky · 24/12/2025 18:37

NoBinturongsHereMate · 24/12/2025 16:04

U3A is only for retired people. No help for a shift worker.

He can identify as retired for the morning

Harassedevictee · 24/12/2025 19:35

@Another2Cats thank you for the update. Well done to you and your DH.

RareGoalsVerge · 24/12/2025 19:57

@Another2Cats I strongly suggest that during the process of finalising this settlement, your DH seeks confirmation that any events to which other males (transwomen) will be welcome as non-members, then DH will be equally welcome? These "sisterhood" meetings do seem to be being set up as a figleaf to cover them carrying on as previously.

EyesOpening · 24/12/2025 21:06

Amazing news, well done to you and Mr 2Cats! I applaud your and his tenacity. There's a phrase that escapes me atm, something like many hands and light work but many people chipping away at something. Thanks for the update!

KnottyAuty · 24/12/2025 22:38

Thank you OP - have a wonderful Christmas xxx

ArabellaScott · 24/12/2025 23:26

Another2Cats · 24/12/2025 08:52

Well, the end of the thread.

I wanted to update this yesterday but DH was waiting for an email. I could see that he had received an email from them and I soooo wanted to open it and have a look, but I thought no.

DH works evening shift (2pm – 10pm) so I stoically waited until he came home and it was indeed the email that he had been waiting for. It was their solicitors confirming that they had filed with the court their acceptance of Form N242A agreeing to settle the case.

To go back a bit, a week after the WI press statement, DH made what is called a “Part 36 Offer”. This is DH offering a compromise as long as they pay all his costs.

Wait, what? Why did your DH offer a compromise?

This was never about DH having his “day in court” or anything like that. This was always about getting the WI to acknowledge the law (and also about DH’s ‘activity’ – see below**). In his letter before action, DH stated his two preferred outcomes:

i) You accept my application as a man for membership of the WI, or

ii) Your policy is altered to reflect the law and then I would have to accept that I cannot join your organisation

In the press statement that the WI made, they acknowledged they were in the wrong:

“… and have regrettably concluded that we have no other choice but to make these changes to our membership criteria if we are to continue to operate legally as a women’s organisation and charity.”

and also:

“We have a public duty to ensure our charity is not in breach of the law.”

Given that one of the initial remedies that DH mentioned in his letter before action (the WI changing their rules) had been achieved, he didn’t see the need for continuing and so made a Part 36 offer to settle the claim.

Part of the offer was that the WI would pay his costs at the Litigant in Person rate. When we worked out how long he had spent on the case (including researching the law and finding authorities etc) it was almost two working weeks - albeit spread out over seven months.

Just to add to things, the Litigant in Person rate changed on 1st October (from £19 to £24 per hour) so DH had to do totals for pre and post 1st October.

DH will be receiving those costs in the new year.
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A number of posters on the earlier thread very kindly offered to help with gardening (or would that be jam making in this case?). I couldn’t believe how generous people could be.

But in the background there were some things going on. DH had approached two different possible funders to see if they might support him but there was no interest for different reasons.

Then another funder was approached on DH’s behalf by somebody else. The only trouble is that this fund is just set up to support women (this is why DH never approached them). However, they did feel that DH’s case was important and so some, very brainy, legal types (including a KC) started looking at how things could be arranged so as to provide some support to DH while still having the fund remain within its remit.

I saw an email to DH where it was described as “very novel legal territory” which did worry me a bit.

Anyway, fortunately, the WI decided to change their rules and so no hearing was necessary. If this case had of gone to a hearing then that sort of funding would have made all the difference.

Both DH and myself are so grateful for all the work these people put in towards supporting his case if it were to go to a hearing. We’re also both really grateful for the messages of support from here as well; that also helped a lot as well.
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** So, as to DH’s ‘activity’ that was raised a few times on the first thread. As I mentioned above, DH works – and has done so for many years – an evening shift (2pm – 10pm) and this point is relevant.

He has long been interested in playing bridge; I have absolutely no interest in it at all. Locally, there were/are (we moved part way through this) some local bridge clubs but they are all in the evening. Not surprising, as most people work 9-5.

So DH could never join any of these clubs as he works until 10pm. There was one organisation that ran bridge mornings locally – the WI.

So that was the spark that set this whole thing off. I didn’t mention it at the time as I have no idea whether bridge mornings are common or not in the WI and so whether this would be outing.

There was also a not dissimilar activity morning that was also held by a local WI that I won’t mention as I’m sure that is very uncommon indeed.

Merry Christmas to you both!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/12/2025 00:23

Brilliant work, I hope you and DH have a lovely Christmas 🎄

Bluebootsgreenboots · 25/12/2025 08:55

Thank you Mr and Mrs @Another2Cats for your calm logic and determination.
I hope your DH finds a way to try out bridge some by some other means.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 25/12/2025 09:24

GrandmaMazur · 25/12/2025 09:01

Well done those women in the WI Declaration who actually represent the majority of WI members who expect the WI to follow the law. Flowers

JellySaurus · 25/12/2025 11:31

@Another2Cats Well done and thank you 🤩

I hope your dh finds somewhere to play Bridge. Surely there are daytime places that cater to retired people, but don’t require people to be retired to join?

Greyskybluesky · 25/12/2025 12:44

GrandmaMazur · 25/12/2025 09:01

Thanks for posting this.

A careful eye needs to be kept on the WI spending of funds in the future. I assume they publish their annual figures? I have every confidence that these will be subject to scrutiny by sharp-eyed WI members now that this is all out in the open. Rightly so.

MyAmpleSheep · 25/12/2025 14:25

RareGoalsVerge · 24/12/2025 19:57

@Another2Cats I strongly suggest that during the process of finalising this settlement, your DH seeks confirmation that any events to which other males (transwomen) will be welcome as non-members, then DH will be equally welcome? These "sisterhood" meetings do seem to be being set up as a figleaf to cover them carrying on as previously.

He may have to threaten legal action to be allowed into the “Sisterhood” - whereupon there will be a new press release that, with great sorrow, only biological women will be admitted to the Sisterhood, but the Sisterhood will be setting up trans-inclusive events under the banner of the sister-sisterhood…

ad infinitum.

Stopbringingmicehome · 26/12/2025 01:05

We need to threaten action about women members money being spent on non members

Shedmistress · 26/12/2025 08:24

In my past life I used to audit training programmes to ensure that the [uk government] money they were being funded was actually being spent on training the people that were being trained in the training they were supposed to be having.

From day 1, the whole rotten lot was fraught with fraud. I spent more time with the legal team and external forensic accountants checking my and my teams work on ensuring we were not paying them for the stuff they claimed had happened but hadn't actually ever happened. [I was once accused of inventing the concept of an 'invoice' as apparently they had never come across this concept before - true story].

I'd have a field day with these charities and their accountancy firms who appear to be spending funding including members' income on men when it was given/awarded/donated to spend on women.

MyAmpleSheep · 26/12/2025 09:25

Shedmistress · 26/12/2025 08:24

In my past life I used to audit training programmes to ensure that the [uk government] money they were being funded was actually being spent on training the people that were being trained in the training they were supposed to be having.

From day 1, the whole rotten lot was fraught with fraud. I spent more time with the legal team and external forensic accountants checking my and my teams work on ensuring we were not paying them for the stuff they claimed had happened but hadn't actually ever happened. [I was once accused of inventing the concept of an 'invoice' as apparently they had never come across this concept before - true story].

I'd have a field day with these charities and their accountancy firms who appear to be spending funding including members' income on men when it was given/awarded/donated to spend on women.

Was that the situation maybe 20 years ago when one would be accosted outside the supermarket and persuaded to sign up for some government funded training that was free to access etc?

EmpressaurusKitty · 26/12/2025 09:37

Really interesting. I get emals to my work address occasionally about government funded training for vaguely related stuff. I thought it might be dodgy.

Shedmistress · 26/12/2025 10:35

MyAmpleSheep · 26/12/2025 09:25

Was that the situation maybe 20 years ago when one would be accosted outside the supermarket and persuaded to sign up for some government funded training that was free to access etc?

Show quote history

Yes - I was also involved in this on the audit side 20 years ago and once had a provider turn up with a van load of documents [the day I returned to work after a week in New York] and said I had 24 hours to 'audit' it all. I shut the van door, said 'fax it me', and walked back into my office. They drove off, faxed it to me and I rejected the whole lot. I had to stop them faxing it after running out of paper. None of it was legit.

I thought at one point I was going to get a horses head left in my bed it got so fraught! No way was I signing that off.

The whole of the government funded training industry is one massive shit show of fraud but nobody wants to know as it ticks boxes.

I remember going through it all with a very high up police officer in a major UK city for 2 hours, after the zoom call where I showed him all the evidence of one of his boss' registered training providers, he never responded and we couldn't get them to take further action. I then saw him the next year in an enquiry on the BBC News.

I had a 17 point audit programme for every claim that came in and if I couldn't see evidence of the every stage I wouldn't pay. I audited one of the departments of my own organisation and their 'audit process' and they didn't even make it to the second point of my audit standards.

So much money is going to people doing this and a whole host of other funding streams, I can't even describe what a collossal waste of time money and effort.

It is why I had to retire early, it was too stressful to keep going.

Shedmistress · 26/12/2025 10:39

EmpressaurusKitty · 26/12/2025 09:37

Really interesting. I get emals to my work address occasionally about government funded training for vaguely related stuff. I thought it might be dodgy.

The biggest scam is to get you to sign up, then they take your details, get someone to fill in the forms, fake your signature and pretend that you have had some sort of 'intervention'. Which often is just you filling the form in. That triggers a 'start' payment.

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