DH -v- The WI, Thread 2

[Another2Cats]

@RareGoalsVerge rightly pointed out (thank you) on my previous thread that it was getting near the limit and that I should start a second thread, so this is it.

This is a link to the first thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5333650-an-update-to-the-wi-announcement-thread-my-dh-just-got-a-reply-to-his-application-to-join-them

So, a recap.

DH has long had an interest in a couple of activities that were only offered locally by the WI. Obviously, it never crossed his mind to try and join as the WI is a woman only organisation - or so he thought.

But then, following the FWS case, the WI made an announcement that they would continue accepting trans identifying men (TIM) as members.

I suggested to DH that he could now join the WI and jokingly said (although it wasn't really funny, I'm not good at jokes) that he wouldn't have to bother with a wig and lippy any more.

So DH applied to join the local federation and was rejected.

Various things then happened and DH is now bringing a sex discrimination claim against the WI.

The WI instructed a big Tier 1 London law firm, one of the partners of which then called DH and explained that they would be relying on section 158, Equality Act and invited him to withdraw his claim.

After that they sent a letter to DH stating that in addition to the section 158 defence it was also the case that the WI "does not purport to establish single sex membership within the meaning of the EqA"

They went on to say:

"As such, it is free to define “women who have reached the Age of Majority” within its Membership Rules as it pleases, as long as its definition is not discriminatory. As we explain below, the definition “women who live as women, including transgender women” is not discriminatory."

They also said that their membership policy does not discriminate on the grounds of sex or render reassignment and that:

"The Membership Policy does not exclude anyone on these grounds. It allows for the admission of “biological” men as members, as long as they are living as women. It also allows for the admission of people who are not trans, as long as they are living as women."
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So that is where we are as of today. The next step in the process will be in early August so there probably won't be any substantive update to the thread until then.

But, as I said earlier, even though I don't always reply to every post I do read every single comment (often more than once) and having people take an interest really does make a difference. Thank you.
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PS In their letter, they put quotation marks around the word biological - "biological" (see above). Both DH and I were rather confused by this and thought that they were perhaps quoting him in the Particulars of Claim, but DH hadn't used that term.

On looking at the letter in more detail, the answer was found in one of the footnotes. They said:

2 Where references are made to “biological” sex in in this letter, quotation marks are used to make it clear that we refer to the term as used by the Supreme Court in FWS, to mean sex as recorded at birth. This is not a term that NFWI would otherwise use itself, because sex (including the sex of trans and intersex people) is not binary in this way.

[emphasis added]

Well, it's going to be interesting to hear that point argued in court. DH did make a point in the Particulars of Claim to keep referring to "men with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment", perhaps this annoyed them a bit?

I'm sorry if the intention of my post is not clear to you. It is supposed to be a piss take of the poster who said those things. I didn't quote that person in the post (lightand) because I thought it would be obvious it was sarcastic.

My post was supposed to be funny. I wrote it because I could not believe that anybody would say those things - surely anyone who's read the thread will see those previous posts making those idiotic statements? - All of it is a direct quote from the poster "lightand".

That's my stand-up career dead before it's even started. Ho hum

work on your delivery, tbh. And don't give up your day job

Ah - I missed that as I couldn’t work which posts it linked to. This thread has been a bit barking in places!

Fwiw @knittedChristmassysloth I thought you were funny 😁 We get so many apparently serious posts that read like parodies I'm not surprised there's confusion.

See you at the Bluey? I think Galoshes is behind the bar today.

LOL I did actually think maybe you were lighthand’s alter ego, but their posts were so out there I missed the parody. 🤦🏽‍♀️

Thanks, Cake!

Don’t worry. Some of us got it!

The trouble is that you can't parody this shit. It's a joke already .

also to @Stopbringingmicehome - reason and intelligent argument doesn't make the slightest impact on TRAs and their ilk. Our best weapon is actually humour. Read any of the threads where mumsnetters have wittily taken apart some plopper or humourless commenter. See any post by @Boiledbeetle for quick reference.

We all need a bit of laughter and I'll take it where I can. It makes me feel more human ☺️

Well, the end of the thread.

I wanted to update this yesterday but DH was waiting for an email. I could see that he had received an email from them and I soooo wanted to open it and have a look, but I thought no.

DH works evening shift (2pm – 10pm) so I stoically waited until he came home and it was indeed the email that he had been waiting for. It was their solicitors confirming that they had filed with the court their acceptance of Form N242A agreeing to settle the case.

To go back a bit, a week after the WI press statement, DH made what is called a “Part 36 Offer”. This is DH offering a compromise as long as they pay all his costs.

Wait, what? Why did your DH offer a compromise?

This was never about DH having his “day in court” or anything like that. This was always about getting the WI to acknowledge the law (and also about DH’s ‘activity’ – see below**). In his letter before action, DH stated his two preferred outcomes:

i) You accept my application as a man for membership of the WI, or

ii) Your policy is altered to reflect the law and then I would have to accept that I cannot join your organisation

In the press statement that the WI made, they acknowledged they were in the wrong:

“… and have regrettably concluded that we have no other choice but to make these changes to our membership criteria if we are to continue to operate legally as a women’s organisation and charity.”

and also:

“We have a public duty to ensure our charity is not in breach of the law.”

Given that one of the initial remedies that DH mentioned in his letter before action (the WI changing their rules) had been achieved, he didn’t see the need for continuing and so made a Part 36 offer to settle the claim.

Part of the offer was that the WI would pay his costs at the Litigant in Person rate. When we worked out how long he had spent on the case (including researching the law and finding authorities etc) it was almost two working weeks - albeit spread out over seven months.

Just to add to things, the Litigant in Person rate changed on 1st October (from £19 to £24 per hour) so DH had to do totals for pre and post 1st October.

DH will be receiving those costs in the new year.
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A number of posters on the earlier thread very kindly offered to help with gardening (or would that be jam making in this case?). I couldn’t believe how generous people could be.

But in the background there were some things going on. DH had approached two different possible funders to see if they might support him but there was no interest for different reasons.

Then another funder was approached on DH’s behalf by somebody else. The only trouble is that this fund is just set up to support women (this is why DH never approached them). However, they did feel that DH’s case was important and so some, very brainy, legal types (including a KC) started looking at how things could be arranged so as to provide some support to DH while still having the fund remain within its remit.

I saw an email to DH where it was described as “very novel legal territory” which did worry me a bit.

Anyway, fortunately, the WI decided to change their rules and so no hearing was necessary. If this case had of gone to a hearing then that sort of funding would have made all the difference.

Both DH and myself are so grateful for all the work these people put in towards supporting his case if it were to go to a hearing. We’re also both really grateful for the messages of support from here as well; that also helped a lot as well.
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** So, as to DH’s ‘activity’ that was raised a few times on the first thread. As I mentioned above, DH works – and has done so for many years – an evening shift (2pm – 10pm) and this point is relevant.

He has long been interested in playing bridge; I have absolutely no interest in it at all. Locally, there were/are (we moved part way through this) some local bridge clubs but they are all in the evening. Not surprising, as most people work 9-5.

So DH could never join any of these clubs as he works until 10pm. There was one organisation that ran bridge mornings locally – the WI.

So that was the spark that set this whole thing off. I didn’t mention it at the time as I have no idea whether bridge mornings are common or not in the WI and so whether this would be outing.

There was also a not dissimilar activity morning that was also held by a local WI that I won’t mention as I’m sure that is very uncommon indeed.

A big THANK YOU for all that you and Mr Cats have done. Really appreciate it. It can’t of been easy and probably quite stressful at times.

Wishing you and your family a lovely Christmas and happy new year.

Thanks to you and your DH @Another2Cats . Especially for having the persistence to see this through.

It's been very depressing to see a respected women's legacy organisation that started in 1915, founded by women from the suffrage movement, be trashed by the privileged women who now run it when a bunch of men come calling. Their lack of respect for the history of a women's organisation has been depressing.

As Queen Elizabeth 2nd once commented:

"Women have been granted the vote, British women have climbed Everest for the first time and the country has elected its first female prime minister. The Women's Institute has been a constant throughout, gathering women together, encouraging them to acquire new skills and nurturing unique talents".

Hopefully those women "at the top" who can't cope without men being present will leave the WI and set up their own "People's Institute" and stop undermining from within.

In fact there's the U3A which accepts men and women , so the men always had an alternative to the WI.

Thank you to your DH and you from myself and all AHF out there. So pleased for this superb outcome.

Yes, there's often an alternative or several depending on where you live.

But even if there isn't, the basic point stands: this is a women's organisation set up for women.

Well done OP and your DH, and a merry Christmas!

Thank you Another2Cats and thank you Mr Another2Cats. You both did a stellar job. Merry Christmas and many Dreamies to your felines.

I'm sorry that Mr Another2Cats may not be able to play Bridge. Shift work has a lot of disadvantages. But well done for exposing the ridiculousness in the WI and forcing them to address it.

How very interesting. Thanks for posting that and thanks to you and your DH for tackling this.

my understanding is that a “novel” case in legal terms means there is no precedent so your worry about that was perhaps unnecessary. IANAL though.

Thank you, @Another2Cats and MrCats for your persistence on this, and for bringing us with you.

It has been fascinating to watch, and I have no doubt that it played a significant role in shifting the WI position - and, as they share legal advice, probably that of Girl Guides as well. Without being forced to properly examine and justify their policy, and the threat of their name being permanently attached to a legal precedent, I'm sure they would have dragged things out much longer.

And I hope your DH finds a suitable and welcoming bridge club.

I expect U3A has them, but unfortunately they are only for those who are not working. They might know of one and be able to point you in the right direction though. Or maybe a church group?

Thank you Mr and Mrs @Another2Cats I hope you both have a lovely Christmas.

I got spelunking in the draw. I don't know who got bridge.

Thanks so much for updating!

Thank you and Merry Christmas!

Crikey...what a top result.