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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

DH -v- The WI, Thread 2

703 replies

Another2Cats · 22/07/2025 07:33

@RareGoalsVerge rightly pointed out (thank you) on my previous thread that it was getting near the limit and that I should start a second thread, so this is it.

This is a link to the first thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5333650-an-update-to-the-wi-announcement-thread-my-dh-just-got-a-reply-to-his-application-to-join-them

So, a recap.

DH has long had an interest in a couple of activities that were only offered locally by the WI. Obviously, it never crossed his mind to try and join as the WI is a woman only organisation - or so he thought.

But then, following the FWS case, the WI made an announcement that they would continue accepting trans identifying men (TIM) as members.

I suggested to DH that he could now join the WI and jokingly said (although it wasn't really funny, I'm not good at jokes) that he wouldn't have to bother with a wig and lippy any more.

So DH applied to join the local federation and was rejected.

Various things then happened and DH is now bringing a sex discrimination claim against the WI.

The WI instructed a big Tier 1 London law firm, one of the partners of which then called DH and explained that they would be relying on section 158, Equality Act and invited him to withdraw his claim.

After that they sent a letter to DH stating that in addition to the section 158 defence it was also the case that the WI "does not purport to establish single sex membership within the meaning of the EqA"

They went on to say:

"As such, it is free to define “women who have reached the Age of Majority” within its Membership Rules as it pleases, as long as its definition is not discriminatory. As we explain below, the definition “women who live as women, including transgender women” is not discriminatory."

They also said that their membership policy does not discriminate on the grounds of sex or render reassignment and that:

"The Membership Policy does not exclude anyone on these grounds. It allows for the admission of “biological” men as members, as long as they are living as women. It also allows for the admission of people who are not trans, as long as they are living as women."
.

So that is where we are as of today. The next step in the process will be in early August so there probably won't be any substantive update to the thread until then.

But, as I said earlier, even though I don't always reply to every post I do read every single comment (often more than once) and having people take an interest really does make a difference. Thank you.
.

PS In their letter, they put quotation marks around the word biological - "biological" (see above). Both DH and I were rather confused by this and thought that they were perhaps quoting him in the Particulars of Claim, but DH hadn't used that term.

On looking at the letter in more detail, the answer was found in one of the footnotes. They said:

2 Where references are made to “biological” sex in in this letter, quotation marks are used to make it clear that we refer to the term as used by the Supreme Court in FWS, to mean sex as recorded at birth. This is not a term that NFWI would otherwise use itself, because sex (including the sex of trans and intersex people) is not binary in this way.

[emphasis added]

Well, it's going to be interesting to hear that point argued in court. DH did make a point in the Particulars of Claim to keep referring to "men with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment", perhaps this annoyed them a bit?

An update to the WI Announcement thread. My DH just got a reply to his application to join them. | Mumsnet

This is not a thread about a thread, but recently there was a thread about the Womens Institute announcement that they would not be implementing the S...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5333650-an-update-to-the-wi-announcement-thread-my-dh-just-got-a-reply-to-his-application-to-join-them

OP posts:
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24
SabrinaThwaite · 14/12/2025 09:46

lightand · 14/12/2025 09:28

My gosh.

It doesnt have falling numbers at the moment, as far as I know.

And wow, this thread is feisty.

All I posted was that men are allowed where I live!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just in case it hadnt been mentioned.
Which presumably it hadnt, going by the comments.

Just wow.

And for the record, I am a woman!

If your WI group is allowing men to join then it is in breach of its charitable objects.

Men cannot join the WI and should not be attending meetings.

nutmeg7 · 14/12/2025 10:00

lightand · 14/12/2025 09:44

But a feminism board centres women’s rights and it’s rather odd to post in favour of men’s rights instead.

Personally I dont see why not.

And isnt that the whole point of this particular thread anyway?!?
In reality?

You can post what you like, no-one is stopping you.
And so can everyone else.

This thread is about whether men should be allowed in the WI.

According to their statutes and charitable aims, it is a single sex organisation.

As you have noted, some WI units have allowed men in as long as they claim to be women.

There is support for this from the centre, but to do this legally, they would need to change their statutes. (Because sex means biological sex in law).

Those at the centre are not proposing to make proper legal changes to admit men.

Presumably because they wouldn’t have the grass roots support to do so, and/or because the point of joining a women’s organisation for trans-identified males is for the validation.

A man who does not identify as a woman was threatening to sue the WI because they can’t let some males in and not others. He has been posting updates here.

Hence WI have announced they will now be following their single sex statute.

And that’s it. You now have the context of this thread.

Mmmnotsure · 14/12/2025 10:06

What's that description: "someone who could pick a fight in an empty room"?

lightand · 14/12/2025 10:23

As you have noted, some WI units have allowed men in as long as they claim to be women

That is definitely not what I wrote.

lightand · 14/12/2025 10:27

Mmmnotsure · 14/12/2025 10:06

What's that description: "someone who could pick a fight in an empty room"?

As you have noted, some WI units have allowed men in as long as they claim to be women

And I definitely did not do that either!!

Others picked a fight.

My gosh.

I thought feminism on this site had so calmed down in the last 5 years or more.
Very definitely appears not.

Yes fight in empty room! But not by me.

Do reread if you need to.

borntobequiet · 14/12/2025 10:48

Once again, our hapless visitors make our arguments for us with their flailing around.

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 14/12/2025 10:52

OP, or anyone else - has any information been obtained about how the proposed 'extra' sisterhood meetings will be funded? Is it assumed it will be from the normal WI funds?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 14/12/2025 10:53

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 14/12/2025 09:37

I wonder if there will be an answer to this?

A meeting where one sex pays and the other does not would seem like a clear case of sex discriminaton.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 14/12/2025 11:10

To be clear, I do not have any issue with any group setting up to focus on the interests people who align with cultural constructs of femininity and culturally feminine interests and including both sexes. That sounds like a good and progressive thing. There's no reason these interests need to be limited to the female sex.

What is not good and progressive is the neo sexist idea that men who have these interests are somehow "really" women.

Include them as men because their diversity as men is welcome, not because they somehow don't count as men.

EmpressaurusKitty · 14/12/2025 11:12

Gosh! Wow! We’re all feisty (also shrill & strident?) & haven’t calmed down & aren’t talking about men’s rights. Just wow!

Oh dear.

IDareSay · 14/12/2025 11:17

lightand · 14/12/2025 10:27

As you have noted, some WI units have allowed men in as long as they claim to be women

And I definitely did not do that either!!

Others picked a fight.

My gosh.

I thought feminism on this site had so calmed down in the last 5 years or more.
Very definitely appears not.

Yes fight in empty room! But not by me.

Do reread if you need to.

You are David Cameron and I claim my £5

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/12/2025 11:35

EweProfessorSurnameDoctorProfessor · 14/12/2025 09:36

I know the dangers of the hitler was a vegetarian so all vegetarians are nazis fallacy and that’s not what I’m saying here.

It’s more to point out the gall that someone who has been convicted of making images of child abuse with children as young as 12 months old (making here in the sense of downloading/digital copies) loftily pronouncing what is moral cowardice or not

x.com/ericjoyce/status/1996234738462286277

ugh, vile. Who is still following that fucker?

CriticalConditionUnamendedVersion · 14/12/2025 11:45

'Language' Eresh! Grin

ETA words cropped off, click the photo for it to make sense!

DH -v- The WI, Thread 2
GargoylesofBeelzebub · 14/12/2025 11:59

lightand · 14/12/2025 09:29

I had thought mumsnet had calmed down in the last few years.
Appears not.

How unusual for ploppers onto feminism threads to tell women to “calm down”. Never had that before. /s

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/12/2025 12:00

CriticalConditionUnamendedVersion · 14/12/2025 11:45

'Language' Eresh! Grin

ETA words cropped off, click the photo for it to make sense!

Edited

🤣

lcakethereforeIam · 14/12/2025 12:19

@lightand If I understand correctly your WI let's any man who wants to to toddle along to meetings? Or is it more like they can accompany their wives, etc. who are the actual member? I could see that some female members might need a lift from the menfolk and they decided to let them stay rather than drive twice or, potentially, not bother. Practicalities as well as the number boost.

I imagine local groups can set their own criteria to a certain extent, as long as no-one complains. It would be difficult for any one woman to complain and upset a situation the majority were fine with. Even with right and the rulebook on their side.

NotAtMyAge · 14/12/2025 12:50

I thought feminism on this site had so calmed down in the last 5 years or more.
Very definitely appears not.

@lightand Feminism on this board will calm down when men who claim to be women finally stop trying to invade our spaces, services and sports and erase our language. Until then we fight on.

Another2Cats · 14/12/2025 14:48

lightand · 14/12/2025 10:23

As you have noted, some WI units have allowed men in as long as they claim to be women

That is definitely not what I wrote.

What you wrote was this:

"... in our area at least, men have always been welcome at the WI"

It all depends what you mean by this. Do you mean at events that are open to the public or perhaps as a carer for a woman member of the WI?

In those cases, an individual WI can choose to allow men to take part in public events or to attend meetings while acting as a carer.

What an individual WI cannot do is to offer membership to men. The National Federation sets the constitution for each Federation and individual WI to follow.

Each individual WI is required to adopt the constitution that the National Federation sends out and updates from time to time.

So, if your WI is giving membership to men or allowing them to be regular paying guests at meetings then they are acting beyond the scope of their constitution - you should probably keep this quiet from your local Federation (or, even, better, stop doing it).

OP posts:
HeadyLamarr · 14/12/2025 18:50

If your WI opens its meetings to mention it can be disenfranchised from the WI! It's a single sex organisation and it would break its own charter to admit men, @lightand .

Feisty, for god's sake. Talk about gendered language. Men are 'driven' about things while women are 'feisty'... A word that originally meant farty.

EmpressaurusKitty · 14/12/2025 18:51

Also the ‘calm down’.

knittedChristmassysloth · 15/12/2025 00:08
Calm Down Season 11 GIF by Bob's Burgers

Wow! This thread is feisty! Gosh some of you need to CALM DOWN and just read the words what I wrote properly. I AM a woman, by the way, honestly. I wouldn't come in here to annoy everyone, how could you consider that? I just want to express my opinionionion/s.

Tra la la

EmpressaurusKitty · 15/12/2025 06:07

knittedChristmassysloth · 15/12/2025 00:08

Wow! This thread is feisty! Gosh some of you need to CALM DOWN and just read the words what I wrote properly. I AM a woman, by the way, honestly. I wouldn't come in here to annoy everyone, how could you consider that? I just want to express my opinionionion/s.

Tra la la

Like, wow. Just wow!

CautiousLurker2 · 15/12/2025 07:26

EmpressaurusKitty · 15/12/2025 06:07

Like, wow. Just wow!

Wrong thread, perps? Or used wrong sock account? As far as I could see this was their first post on this thread, or am I going mad? Made no sense to me.

Brefugee · 15/12/2025 08:40

knittedChristmassysloth · 15/12/2025 00:08

Wow! This thread is feisty! Gosh some of you need to CALM DOWN and just read the words what I wrote properly. I AM a woman, by the way, honestly. I wouldn't come in here to annoy everyone, how could you consider that? I just want to express my opinionionion/s.

Tra la la

yeah, i wonder how anyone got the impression you were anything other than 100% feminist supporting women.

Stopbringingmicehome · 15/12/2025 11:21

Don't feed the troll

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