NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #32

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31

Yes, I thought he was a witness. It struck me as odd that NHS Fife objected to Maya Forstater being called as a witness but they have called Vic Valentine.

So DU assumed SP was referring Isla Bryson when she mentioned prisons? Did SP actually mention Bryson? SP is being pilloried for allegedly comparing DU to a rapist. Was it all in DU's head?

VV has submitted a witness statement (and a supplementary one?) and been excused from attending court because neither party wants to hear any more from thems.

How interesting - I remember coming up with the same thing over 20 years ago when I worked in something that was attracting national press coverage and a lot of outrage! Had no idea someone had given this concept a name, but had tried to explain it to others repeating unlikely things from the papers....

More likely that Isla’s mother kept her name when they married

In Part 1 NC seemed to be building the case that DU had acted maliciously. Keeping notes from September. Making sure to set down key markers with different staff at key points “just in case” he needed to complain. He appeared to be hyper aware of the disciplinary process and armed/ready to use it. Unfortunately for Sandie she was the one he used his ammo against. DU was very clear on the stand - nothing Sandie could have done (bar quietly getting changed next to him) would have been enough. I started out thinking it had all been a terrible mistake and DU was a victim of the process too… it began to appear more like a planned process step by step with DU pulling everyone’s strings - from the histrionic run around the dept to find EP & being walked to his car; the hour he spent composing the first complaint email in the car park and sending it at 3am Xmas morning. The push with all staff members to formalise the complaints which were exaggerated when speaking to colleagues but which were rowed bavk from on the Tribunal stand. The inclusion of the prof conduct complaint in early drafts of his statement which were taken out (on BMA advice somehow obtained while the BMA was shut for Xmas) and then put back in when it looked like she was coming back to work of a shift where they’d never meet, but which would allow her to speak to other staff/organise. I started out sympathetic of DU and willing to give benefit of the doubt like you might be doing - so I’d say it’s well worth reading his evidence on TT to form your own opinion.

I could tell you where to get one that says "I'm often mistaken for an adult because of my age" - but I havent researched every single T-shirt they sell and one of them might offend someone.

I started out sympathetic of DU and willing to give benefit of the doubt like you might be doing

Shame there’s no publicly available video of the Feb proceedings. I was watching as he made the reference to his big girl pants and felt 🤮

No benefit of the doubt from me

Damn, I'm making jam and have let it catch the bottom of the pan because I'm reading this.

That’s a bugger usually there’s no retrieving it 🙁

It looks like she was born Isla Marie-Rose Field and at some point along the way either became or started identifying as (arf) Isla Marie-Rose McLeod.

Then finally transformed into a Bumpa. Her husband is listed on PS too but I won't name him. Poor man probably suffers enough already.

Yep. I'd better attend more carefully to my yoghurt (it's raining. A lot.)

Then, and only then, am I coming back here.

The problem is whenever the GC side try to put forward an argument in the abstract that encompasses bad behaviour of some trans/ claiming to be trans people it is immediately taken as a person attack on all transwomen. The fact that Sandie didn't mention IB doesn't matter in GI world.

@nauticant Organisations can often be held responsible for the actions of their employees, it's called vicarious liability. Can Fife just dump Upton, even if he agreed? If he is still employed there - and we dont actually know if his contract was renewed - then they could fire him afterwards for gross misconduct. They could have fired him before now and claim that in mitigation but their policies are also responsible.

Ah I completely missed her mentioned at the beginning...and that the list is 'other' witnesses. Thanks

I just googled Scottish Trans. It's a while since I've been on their site.

Who in the name of the wee man thought it was a good idea to have a mahoosive banner photo of Mridul Wadhwa (s/he who nearly brought down Edinburgh Rape Crisis) on their front page?

@prh47bridge Does 2 witnesses being listed as "other" mean they are being called by Naomi rather than by Fife and does the concept of a "hostile" witness exist outside of Tv dramas? Does vicarious liabilty make it harder for Fife to dump Upton, especially as he was acting in line with their unwritten policy?

I was once on a management course. We were split into smaller teams & all given the same scenario to discuss & then say what we would do next. The scenario was that worker A had come to us & complained that worker B had punched him. What was our response to that?

Mine was the only team who said, "Speak to worker B & see what he says about it." Every other team said, "Sack worker B."🙄

Wow that’s thorough sleuthing! 👏

I don't understand this bit in the Courier

"Jim Borwick, who owns a computer forensics consultancy based in East Lothian, will also be quizzed at the tribunal.
Mr Borwick is an expert at forensically analysing mobile phones and has previously been called to give evidence high-profile murder trials in Scotland.
We previously reported how a bid from Ms Peggie’s legal team to search Dr Upton’s phone had failed"

If their bid failed, why is Jim Borthwick being called?

No idea what them being listed as "other" means.

Yes, hostile witnesses are a real thing. You try to avoid them in civil cases as far as possible.

Fife remain liable for Upton's actions regardless of whether they dump him. I don't think vicarious liability or the fact he was acting within their unwritten policies stops them from dumping him, but we don't know what they have agreed with him. Dumping him now would be pretty much an admission that they don't have a case in my view.

The order to get DU phone wasn’t needed as he handed it over willingly.

Their bid failed because the tribunal didn't think it had the power to order the requested forensic examination but, even if they did, they wouldn't have ordered it because the defendants (Fife and Upton) had agreed to the examination. The fact a mobile forensics expert is being called strongly suggests that the forensic examination did indeed take place.

Get a grip and stop being so sarky and having a jibe at me. I've explained it once to your snarky pal upthread.

My grandaughter was stabbed in Southport along with her friends by Rudukabana. Perhaps you missed it?
That's why I made that comment about you linking to the shank a bitch mug seller. Give it a rest along with your pal who accused me of preaching and spoiling her fun when I pointed it out.

Meanwhile I'll try and reframe my trauma.

I would have thought he'd been enabled far too much by his employer for that to fly.

Although theorertically NHS Fife might be able to cut Upton loose, I don't think that ideologically they'd be able to do that. So I was thinking of them going for a halfway house with NHS Fife walking off with the existing defence team and Upton being provided with his own. However, it would be extremely late in the day to make such a change.