What do whips, spandex and dog masks have to do with Pride?

[SnugglyJumpersMakeItBetter]

They're kinks/fetishes right? Not related to sexual orientation. Also why are they anything to be 'proud' of? Your closest friends would probably find it pretty odd (and stomach turning!) if you told them your OH likes to wear your undies, or what gets you off is him licking your feet... Why is proclaiming what should be personal and private turn-ons to the general public any better? Why should they be glad for you in any way for being so open about it?

Exactly. My city had a pride parade and fair on last year but I didn't take my 5yo even though I knew he'd love it as some of the posts people were putting (mainly mocking) on Instagram were pretty awful. One man had a long blonde wig with a dildo on the end of each of his two plaits. Wtf. And this was mid afternoon.

No one is stopping people from doing anything. They are saying that considered respect for others still remains even when being out and proud. And there are ways to be expressive and times to be fully expressive.

We don't have a situation where straight people parade their kinks on the high street. So the visibility thing does matter. Being fabulous and expressing yourself is not the same as getting your fetish out in public.

The Trojan Horse is back trying to erode boundaries and blur lines. And it's bollocks.

It really is a case in point of the whole:
'It's not happening'
'If it did happen it wouldn't be a problem'
'It is educational that it is happening'
'It is happening and I'm taking my kids'
'My kids are all taught by me about kink and bondage and it is all fine'

There wasn’t really any way to stop this from happening tbh. Pride was always about breaking down norms in the field of sex. That might or might not be precisely what was had in mind at first—I assume it was much more specific in 1971 or whenever—but it’s definitely more and more how it’s been understood. It’s a place for people who want to transgress.

Also being gay has clearly won the wider argument. It would even be kind of weird to see a ’gay rights’ march now – what would they be marching for, exactly? People who have what they want generally don’t bother demonstrating. If organisers now tried to say ‘it’s about establishing these norms instead’, they’d look like exactly the sort of squares they were marching against in the first place.

The thing is, most people do not want to see this sort of shit when they are on their way to buy their shopping.

If the 'movement' cannot see that their own fucking behaviour will be the cause of the backlash then that is on them.

The issue I have is that for most people who don't an active interest in Pride it's seen as a gay pride. And then they see all that crap and all of a sudden gayness is fetish adjacent, no? Just seems like for your average gay person just trying to get on with their life the messaging isn't all that helpful.

I'm seeing very not square and fabulous gay men looking around going 'hey come on now'.

It's interesting to watch in real time.

It is up to the community to say enough, and not worry about 'being square' and not get sucked into the competitive shock. They can do that, and draw a line to separate the two.

I do see definite cracks emerging, as it's pissing off not just the boring straights but also those within the community.

Olly Alexander massively misjudged this same thing last year and he was criticised by a really wide range of people over trying to push it too far in the wrong place and it reflecting badly.

Pride is and always has been an argument over hearts and minds not just a chance to parade and be visible. If you lose sight of that, it will fracture and eventually implode. It's one of those natural laws of physics things.

If you don't bring the public support along with you, you risk becoming the antithesis of your stated aim to win greater acceptance.

@AidaP
Do you think any visual images, either real life or on a screen, shouldn't be seen by children ? If so what?
You clearly think being dressed up in a gimp suit is perfectly fine for children to see. Do you dress like this in front of your own children at home and have your partner lead you around on all fours? You see to think this is perfectly fine in public.

The argument is that homophobia still exists. Which is sadly true. The next question is whether Pride marches are helping to address that.

For.the most part, Pride has now become 1. A corporate pinkwashing exercise, 2. A kink and fetish parade, and 3. A party for hen nights and people come.to see the bands. It's funded by big corps and political organisations. Its been co opted and manipulated for political ends and is anything but grassroots.

There are still those marching to increase 'visibility and acceptance' of LGB people, but I'm not sure whether this is a net effective or helpful act anymore.

It could turn into a general hedonist festival type of affair for everyone. But there are various discordant aims within it that maybe can't be resolved.

Crucially, is it about celebrating acceptance of minorities into society, or is it about bucking against society?

Fundamentally it's trying to achieve two mutually exclusive aims.

To change society to accept minority sexual orientation, or to protest against society?

I suppose this is what they mean when they say that Queer Theory must logically eat itself eventually.

It's trying to both normalise minority sexualities and emphasise their non-normativity.

Wild to think that Pride marches used to be comprised of people dressed normally, or even in work clothes, to say to the straight community "we're just the same as you". There was a definite absence of middle aged straight men dressed in Britney Spears schoolgirl outfits.

It probably has to do with the iron law of institutions, how gay orgs like Stonewall were flush with money and political clout at precisely the time the struggle for gay equality became mostly redundant.

I think the loss of corporate sponsorship is a lagging indicator, but Pride has been long overdue a downsizing. It might be able to reinvent itself as a more grassroots thing. But I don't think it's long term sustainable to have a huge corporate sponsored event that (a) trades off the historic struggle for LGB equality when LGB people are increasintly absent, (b) promotes itself as a family friendly event to take your kids to and (c) displays every fetish you can imagine and some you didn't want to.

Auto hidden? Weird. I wonder why.

No idea. I can't work out what would have triggered that either.

Me neither! Must have been a particular word, but i can't see what.

Unfortunately that’s not at all the case.

A grown child of a TIM describes her experiences growing up and how safeguarding has been destroyed for children with a trans parent. On this podcast- scary stuff:
open.spotify.com/episode/0efmd4muQMkblmbXnzHNXY?si=IsGr0i86QJen1qTOXqHTZw

The 'what is pride now' question is similar to 'what is Stonewall for and what does it do next' question.

There is definitely a crossroads here and I can see some going one way and some going another.

And this isn't about allies necessarily either.

There was a post about Olly Alexander from a gay man on twitter that sums up this dilemma well.

I paraphrase but it was along the lines of this
"As a gay man I was really looking forward to Olly's performance. He'd made a lot of noise about how he really wanted to represent gay culture. But when I saw the performance I was disappointed and worried. It was too much, the staging were at the expense of the vocals and therefore were a negative thing. I also can't help thinking he's pushed the stereotypes too far. Is everyone going to get the references to George Michael and cottaging in a dirty locker room and if they do, are they going to see it in a positive light? I can't help feeling he's missed the target audience, got carried away with what he wanted to do and 'over gayed' it rather than thinking 'ooh this is Eurovision, and even though it's a celebration of gay pride in many respects it's also got to be respectful to all the other viewers out there too'."

There are definitely some internal questions being made and considerations about what the ultimate goal is with pride and where does it go next. We've seen it for a while with the purpose of Stonewall.

Tbh I think Stonewall going under would be the best thing at this point as it's stop 'monopoly thinking' and encourage more grass roots organisations to spring up with a much wider base than this monolithic thinking about what it is to be gay, what gay people think and what gay politics should be.

And I think Pride itself will likely go the same way over time if that happens.

Can you summarise it please?

@BeeSouriante@AidaP
do either of you have any advice on how to explain a man leading another man around on all fours in leather and a dog collar to a five year old, in a way that won’t result in me being flagged to social services and won’t result in my child trying to drag another five year old around by his neck at school for a bit of fun? Bearing in mind I’ve just walked through my town centre, not made a conscious choice to go on a march, and didn’t agree to viewing the above in advance.

Thought not. And yes, I am seeing you as two cheeks of the same arse here, as the clear message from you both is that I’m missing a parenting trick and an opportunity to open my child’s mind by normalising that activity for him.

"Mom, why are those people doing X?"
me: Well, apparently they enjoy it, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Not sure why do you think any of that leads to child services intervention. It may offend your 1920's fake puritanism, but that's about it.

It’s high time for the LGB - and the T - community to pull their finger out and start seriously challenging the views on this thread, or we’ll have the paedophile information exchange situation rearing its ugly head again and setting everything back by 50 years.

If people like the majority of posters here stayed away from Pride events, all of the grooming of children by men with paraphilias and fetishes would be happening out of sight. Which is exactly what they want of course.

“Keep away, people who ask difficult questions and raise concerns!”

and won’t result in my child trying to drag another five year old around by his neck at school for a bit of fun?

you missed this bit….

@AidaP and @BeeSouriante showing their true, authentic, male, fetishist kinkselves here. It was only a matter of time.

🚩 🥧 ☀️

@AidaP I’m not sure why you think that wouldn’t lead to a safeguarding referral? Are you aware of the responsibilities to do so in the UK? Do you not have child safeguarding in the US?

If your children assaults other children, that's on you, not on seeing kinks.

My kids are very well taught in body integrity and consent, including being able to tell me "I do not want a hug right now" and that gets respected.

This thread has been an eye opener and there has been a lot of saying the quiet bit out loud.

I went to a Pride event with my teen a few years ago. It was billed as over 13 only but no one was applying the age restriction, so they're were younger kids and lots of families.

My teen had a very interesting experience with a drag queen. I'm not sure if he caught it or not, or has reflected on it since but I was relieved when the drag queen's minder stepped in to remind him that he was at a family event. It's interesting that my teen had never wanted to go to another Pride event since.