Violent trans rights protest in Manchester.

[GreenFriedTomato]

This happened 2 weeks ago but I only found out about it when Mr.Menno uploaded a video yesterday.
A few local YouTubers were there and got plenty of footage. Notably they were all quite shocked at how aggressive the TRA's were. Well the ones who weren't familiar with the way they operate.
They didn't just stick to marching through the streets. They invaded the Arndale Centre and marched shouting and swearing while rather bemused looking people were shopping and trying to enjoy their day.
Things turned violent as usual. Two young lesbians got punched and dragged to the floor.
I've linked to a video by Billy Moore who generally goes around filming the city and talking to homeless people and so on. It's quite long but the trans stuff starts around the 15 minute.mark if anyone's interested.

So ironic to see allies bleating on about how trans are the most marginalised and vulnerable and have had their dignity and rights taken away, while the delicate flowers are being filmed acting violently and attacking women (and men).

But carry on lads. People need to see more of this.

"They do benefit from the organisational policy of it not being ok to scream at them in the street, sack them from a job, or deny them housing on the grounds of them being trans."

These were already protected though through philosophical belief.

"After all as the recent ruling has clarified, trans people never had other rights except the right not to be discriminated against for being trans."

Sure. But they have claimed additional privileges are 'human rights', when they are not. Additional privileges are not human rights, yet that label 'rights' gets used for privileges all the time.

After all, Trans rights are human rights takes on a very dishonest meaning when those screaming it are referring to accessing female single sex provisions when they are male. And yet... that is exactly what they mean when they say it.

"despite your attempt to suggest that trans people are threatened"

Where did I say that?

Most of the rest of your post is denying the possibility that people can ever genuinely feel that they are trans and frankly, that is rubbish. There have always been, in many cultures, people who do not identify with their birth sex for a variety of reasons, and who feel more comfortable moving through life as if they are the other sex.

You simply can't police what name people choose to use for themselves or the pronouns they prefer/request people to use. You may disagree and you may refuse to go along with it, that's your prerogative, but you don't get to deny that declaring a trans identity is allowed in UK law . Of course it's possible to be trans. It's not possible to actually change sex, to literally become or "really be" the opposite sex, or to enjoy all the rights and privileges of the opposite sex. That part is what has got us all in this mess.

You want me to base my ideas about trans people on observation of the teans people I know?

I do.

The males are fetishists (3), plus one gay male who is decidedly unpleasant towards women. The one woman (transman) I know is fine.

@Diverze

They do benefit from the organisational policy of it not being ok to scream at them in the street, sack them from a job, or deny them housing on the grounds of them being trans.

I am sure people can feel all sorts of things they are not…

I police nothing - just state what is truth, reality, law…

but you don't get to deny that declaring a trans identity is allowed in UK law

so what is a trans identity? How do you define it esp. in light of the science that proves you can’t transition sex and the logic that shows you can’t transition gender (you simply expand societal understanding of your birth gender / sex)

Of course it's possible to be trans. It's not possible to actually change sex, to literally become or "really be" the opposite sex

This makes no sense to me - you accept that you can’t ‘become’ the opposite sex but then say that you can be trans. - so what does trans. mean? Is it dressing up like small children who try on their mother’s high heels? Is it play-acting like a Shakespearean play with boys playing the girls part? Is it some sort of sexual fantasy like role play? Or is it just men in skirts in which case that is just men being their type of man - which is fine, but that doesn’t need to be called trans. they are just men.

or to enjoy all the rights and privileges of the opposite sex. That part is what has got us all in this mess.

partially - along with violence against women / de-platforming truth esp from women / aggression online / aggression in real life / demand of private spaces including prisons and rape centres / sexual harassment by using the toilets and changing rooms of women / sexual perversions such as men watching little girls change / sexual and physical abuse against the vulnerable and children through promoting positive affirmation, hormones and bodily mutilation / sexual abuse of women by parading themselves sexually in women’s spaces…

a little bit more than just rights…

Women gaining the vote was an act of providing equal opportunity to female people in a sexist society. You obviously think that this is comparable. I do not. Most feminist action is for the benefit of all female people. However, those changes are not to detriment of another group's actual human rights.

I would argue that very few feminist actions are not about providing equity and equality. These are things that all people should have access to but not necessarily how they demand if those demands negatively impact on a groups rights (and I mean rights here again, not additional privileges).

I'm afraid I disagree. When I meet my numerous trans friends/relatives to speak to them, they're lovely and considerate, but then I see the misinformation and inflammatory shit they're posting and sharing on Facebook and realise that's only part of the story, to the point that I don't really want to see them anymore because of the amount of petrol-filled grenades they chuck out on social media with the assumption that everyone they know agrees with them.
I have come to realise that friendship with them is conditional on being inside the rightthink.
Maybe there are these mythical quiet trans people out there who are accomplished critical thinkers who can see the problems with TRA ideology but stay silent, but my friends/relatives are fairly quiet and unassuming in person largely due to massive social anxiety issues and autism stopping them saying or doing out loud a lot of what they feel safe to say or do online. That doesn't mean they don't agree with the TRAs, support them, send them money or perpetuate their lies.

"so what is a trans identity? How do you define it esp. in light of the science that proves you can’t transition sex and the logic that shows you can’t transition gender (you simply expand societal understanding of your birth gender / sex)"

Of course you can't literally transition sex.

You just don't get it. Most trans people either deeply wish they were the other sex, or genuinely believe that in their brain or heart or soul their identity is that they are the other sex. This might well be misguided or wrong, but it feels real to them. If you can't even try to understand that then there's not really anywhere to start from is there? What do you think trans people are trying to do?

You don't have to agree with this idea, but surely you can perceive the possibility that some people's sense of who they are might not align with their sexed body, and this might cause distress?

I can understand they might feel that way, but no matter how genuinely they believe it, we should not allow those beliefs to change our laws or our basic reality. It should be given no more weight than people who genuinely believe the earth is flat or that they’re the next messiah or that King Charles is a lizard person.

Basically, there are millions of people who believe all kinds of weird and wonderful things, and that’s fine until their beliefs are allowed to negatively impact others.

Why should this group’s philosophical beliefs be prioritised the way it has in society though?

And I mean to the point that there is language expectations, with policies around that language, that there is not for any other groups. Or do you think you have a comparative group that society and organisations treat in any way as if that belief reflects material reality when it doesn’t.

But that's a different issue from what I was discussing with @akkakk who seemed to believe that being trans is in itself not possible.

Of course it's possible to be trans, and to hold a deeply held belief that one is in one's essence of the opposite sex somehow.

My personal view is that all trans people, like any of us, are free to use any first name they wish, and should be free to request pronouns of friends and colleagues, but not compel them. In return they should acknowledge that they are not an actual woman or man, they are a trans woman or man, and this comes with some limitations in terms of access to spaces etc.

I do think language is often fluid around material reality when we want to try to spare the feelings of members of a particular group. I am not saying this is right or should be subject to legislation.

For example, we have euphemisms around age, around weight, around disability and this is an attempt to minimise people feeling dismissed, othered or rejected by society. We would often tell white lies "does my bum look big in this?", "celebrate your curves" . We refer to "older adults" when we mean the elderly, "differently abled" people. Some feminine gay men have historically referred to each other as "she" as well.

It’s only possible to be “trans” if you believe it’s a meaningful label.

Having a belief that doesn’t reflect material reality doesn’t mean that a person ‘is’ what they believe they are though. Not the way the word ‘transgender’ has been used.

There is a difference between having a belief in something that is not real and believing that you are something that you are not and expect to be treated as if you are.

I certainly can understand that. I'm afraid I can also know and understand the sexual aspects of this, frequently using and abusive of women; it's not honest to paint it as all innocent distress.

That understanding however does not equate to willingness to enable behaviours that harm and control others. And which damage women's equalities and lives as a sex class.

The issue is that it is too late. The demands have been made, organisations and some people have been fully educated that this is not just a belief but reality. That compliance is not optional but it is mandated, those not doing it are bigoted. I don’t believe it is possible to go back.

As far as I know, no trans person I have met has been involved in physical violence - but shouting "bigot" and trying to impose their rules have been a common factor, even with those who have been prepared to have some debate with me.

I don’t believe it is possible to go back.

No. I don't think that at this point it is going to be possible to forget everything that has been said and done to women, to homosexuals, to children. It is not up to women to endlessly be the wilfully forgetful and always hopeful to believe the best 'bigger person' in the face of relentless evidence and ill treatment.

This.

It is not possible to have an equal, honest relationship. It is conditional on never voicing thoughts or feelings that would challenge theirs, or seeking equality. Not a true friendship.

And yes, to nice people who hold really astounding beliefs about entitlement, punishment for dissent and women as a subordinate race without any business wanting privacy, dignity, decency, or having feelings, never mind equality of consideration.

If someone is just quietly going about their business why would there be a need to " declare" anything? What is the point or purpose of a public declaration?

Requesting people, not in your close circle, to use pronouns is a form of enforcement which goes against many people's instinctive response and which feels like an imposition. An act of make believe that many are uncomfortable with, and some may even feel offended by.

The family and friends of any truly innocent trans-identifying people have the option of explaining to them why women are angry and why we are reclaiming what is ours and moving to safeguard children. They can suggest that they step up to help or keep their heads down as they see fit. If there are as many as PPs are suggesting then surely we can expect to see a fair few stepping up. I look forward to it.

Nobody is taking issue with that.......it is the performative drama that tends to accompany it that is the problem.

I imagine you might suggest that one young man that I'm aware of who has now adopted a trans identity, and has even gone so far as to have his geniitalia surgically removed, as being " just going about life quietly". He isn't abusive or aggressive...he has lots of allies to carry out those functions for him......and is sensitive and engaging on certain subjects. However, every now and then he insists he is a woman and expects everyone to agree with him and validate him. His 'enforcers' take issue with anyone who doesn't.

During his transition he used to post photos of his 'progress'.....all very stereotypically posed...he seemed keen to attract positive comments from men about how they might fancy him " if they didn't know any better". He is clearly not a woman. He associates mainly with men and is engaged in particularly 'masculine' pursuits and hobbies. He is over 6ft tall and quite heavily set. He clearly had mental health issues for many years before resorting to drastic surgery. The validation he received from others....encouraged him on this path.

He's gone quiet recently. I do wonder if he has come to have regrets about what he has done. I do not enagage with him because I cannot play along - and because when I don't the 'enforcers' close ranks.

I have to plop in with my contributions.

Firstly I know of Billy Moore. I find him a joy to listen to not least, for his turn of phrase.

I lived in the North East from seven until fifteen years old. So plain speaking is my thing.

I particularly liked liked his comment “men wanting to piss in birds bogs, WTF is that about”

And my other take away was “do that again mate and i will put you on your arse”

He is the quintessential unreconstructed manly man.

you know just like the fictitious Pete the plumber, from our Naomi. I spat my cup of tea out when she said that.

the other funny bit was the bespectacled dweeb in high vis who approached him
and quickly backed of with a one sided grimace of his mouth.

Mr Menno’s video better show the aggression of the TRA’s towards the bill board guy and the two females filming. They were not aggressive but did stand up for themselves.

All in all the TRA’s are looking like a bunch of twats, And the weird bit is the manly men are our allies.

I can say i know a trans person who isn’t aggressive. But she’s a confused child, entering puberty, who had had boys forcefully kissing her in soft play just months before she transitioned. She’s autistic. She does try to force speech and has had massive shouty meltdown/tantrum when another child uses the ‘wrong’ pronoun or dead name. She also had a new sibling just before the transition so the transition has brought her attention after she had been the youngest child all her life and suddenly not the centre of her parents world. She has very hip cool liberal parents. I would not be surprised to learn her mother had attended a march got swept up in the group and got a bit shouty. The child is vulnerable and being harmed by this ideology. I’ve watched her go from quiet to forceful and shouty.

kids like these are incredibly vulnerable. But as has already been discussed on this thread trans is a huge umbrella and the driving force of the movement is fetishists adult men. Kids like this are just swept up and pushed by parents/peers.

i don’t like this movement because troubled kids are not getting support for SA or coping with autism. All their problems are attributed to being trans and they are believing harmful drugs and surgery will cure their experience of huge societal problems. That makes me angry when I read comments about nice trans people quietly going about their lives and not all trans are the violent TRA shown in videos like this. I obviously care about mine and my dd rights to dignity and privacy and equality but watching the impact of the trans movement on this girl and it blocking her getting help for her actual problems is heart breaking. Yet I get called a bigot for having worries about it

Thank you for this @Burntt. This is the tragedy at the heart of all this.
Countless children and young people groomed, gaslit and coerced into the trans cult. Most with other co morbidities and all without the life experiences to see through the mantras and spot the coercive control, the sexual fetishes and the tactics of alienation from families / society being promoted by the cynical self interested adults pushing all this.

It's child / young people abuse writ large with society collectively guilty of standing by and allowing young people to get caught up in this.

That's why Billy Moore, Mr Menno, Edge of the Matrix, the Gay Men's Network etc are so important. They speak to different communities that many women on here aren't necessarily in contact with.

I totally get it and they still are not men who have transitioned in any way…

they are men who have some idealistic view of what it means to be a woman and identify more with that - perhaps they rebel a bit against the stereotype of men (rugger / drinking / men together type thing) and are more attracted to what they see as more feminine- more sensitive, arty, caring etc…

maybe they genuinely have some reason for dislike of their body…

but they are still men

it doesn’t matter how it is wrapped up / what their feelings or emotions are - born a man = always a man.

encourage them to be any type of man they wish, as a man myself I have no issue with more feminine and caring types of men, with those who wish to wear nail varnish and make up, or wear a skirt, etc… but they are still men.

the only reason to label themselves in any other way is to suggest that they are something they are not - and that causes issues…

they are potentially no different a subset of men to short men or tall men, ginger men or fat men, skinny men or musical men, those men who like cycling or those who do weightlifting… they are all still men.

unless they can physically or otherwise change into something else then they can not transition, so no they can’t be trans.