Violent trans rights protest in Manchester.

[GreenFriedTomato]

This happened 2 weeks ago but I only found out about it when Mr.Menno uploaded a video yesterday.
A few local YouTubers were there and got plenty of footage. Notably they were all quite shocked at how aggressive the TRA's were. Well the ones who weren't familiar with the way they operate.
They didn't just stick to marching through the streets. They invaded the Arndale Centre and marched shouting and swearing while rather bemused looking people were shopping and trying to enjoy their day.
Things turned violent as usual. Two young lesbians got punched and dragged to the floor.
I've linked to a video by Billy Moore who generally goes around filming the city and talking to homeless people and so on. It's quite long but the trans stuff starts around the 15 minute.mark if anyone's interested.

So ironic to see allies bleating on about how trans are the most marginalised and vulnerable and have had their dignity and rights taken away, while the delicate flowers are being filmed acting violently and attacking women (and men).

But carry on lads. People need to see more of this.

I have heard this before.
So those British Jews (or trans people) who aren't marching or actively condemning the actions of the extremists in their ranks deserve to feel vulnerable and unsafe, do they? Only themselves to blame, if they don't speak out in condemnation?

There is a principle here, for me at least. Blame the people who are guilty. Not those who happen to be members of the same group as the guilty. I personally believe that's an important principle. And it doesn't depend on the innocent parties actively having to distance themselves. I shouldn't assume my Muslim neighbour is a religious radical unless and until he proves by condemnation that he is not.

If there are "trans" people who don't agree with the actions of the TRAs they need to make their voices heard otherwise it's assumed that they all approve of what the TRAs do. I have yet to see a single word from one of these alleged reasonable "trans" people condemning the actions of TRAs.

Thanks for editing out your accusations of anti-Semitism at least. Ironic.

You have otherwise literally repeated the same point that I was addressing. No, the majority group should not only be considered valid and moderate if and when it decries the radical fringe. That's not how it works.

Do you honestly believe that every single trans person is going around on marches attacking people, throwing piss, and screaming under banners? Or approves of this? Unless they say otherwise?

I mean, I never went on a Brexit march or a Remain march. Does that have to mean I am radical about Brexit in both directions? I haven't spoken out about it so I must be assumed to be both a rabid Brexiteer and a die-hard Remoaner?

To be fair the whole trans movement is, by its nature, a radical fringe. One which postulates that the concept of 'gender identity' over-rules the reality of sex, and whether people go on activist marches or not, there is an expectation that people must use 'pronouns' which fly in the face of reality; use facilities designated for other groups - and with a huge back up support mechanism which enforces that.

It is not only radical, but also quite dystopian.

Completely understand your point.
However it doesn't mean that we should cease criticising an ideology that's openly removed the rights of women and girls, has deliberately targeted children with the "born in the wrong body" nonsense and is only just realising that imposing their niche world view on society using the tactics of #nodebate and accusations of bigotry to anyone who mildly points out that sex is binary is not winning the hearts of the majority. It's why the footage of the Netflix Dave Chapelle demo is very instructional - several years later the identical tactics are used by the group in Manchester - also in evidence outside every single women's meeting / conference in recent years.

While some people will of course say things that may be unfair, it's transactivists who target people raising concerns about the sterilisation and mutilation of the young, it's transactivists hounding people out of their jobs. And the silence of every trans lobby group about the overrepresentation of paedophiles and sex offenders in the demographic is very telling. To the extent that anyone raising it is accused of calling all trans people predators.

I'm over repeating the mantra "I know this isn't all trans people but..." before raising issues about abuse of children. We'll no longer be silenced. Yes some people will misspeak, but when stating that only women give birth generates threats to livelihood and personal safety, people aren't going to shut up.

You are on a discussion forum where you have had ample opportunity to condemn the actions of TRAs yet you haven't done so. Just saying that the majority of "trans" people don't agree with what TRAs are doing doesn't cut it.

I think that's fair comment.

As I said upthread, most of these people on this march were not violent or even aggressive, although aggressive tactics are so frequently seen in 'trans rights' demos (especially when they are organised to 'counter protest' things like women's rights meetings) that it certainly does seem to be a unifying feature of trans activism.

It looks to me like a march organised without notifying the police (otherwise it would have been policed), which can end up with this kind of chaotic event prone to confrontation and possibly violence.

It's always been fairly clear in discussion on this board that 'trans activism' doesn't necessarily consist of or even involve trans identifying people. Many of the worst, most aggressive 'trans activists' are just blokes in balaclavas who want to terrorise women. Various 'antifa' people etc.

The other thing I was going to say was that up until recently we've mostly seen 'trans rights activists' (a better phrase than 'trans activists' as it is clearer that these people are not necessarily 'trans' themselves) heckle and attack women's rights meetings.

Women and feminists have rarely done the same in reverse. As we see here when the two women are spotted as disruptors, they are surrounded, kettled, pushed, and apparently punched (although as noted we didn't see that on film).

But what is clearer (to me) is the point of view of the man filming, and many onlookers.

Trans rights activists are not shy about attacking women. This is what the chap filming notices. They are far less forward in arguing with him, or any of the other blokes who are observing the march. Unsurprisingly, I wouldn't pick a fight with a big burly bloke, either.

If the trans rights activists are making a name for themselves as a movement that is targeting children and attacking women, and that is being noticed by the average big burly chap in the street, that is unlikely to go well for them.

Because much as a trans rights activist might like to make claims about 'passing' and it being hard to tell, etc, and feminists might argue about this point, when the average man in the street sees a man pushing or hassling a woman, all of the convuluted theories about 'gender presentation' and 'ambiguity' and androgyny etc will go out the window.

Average blokes will not like to see men hassle women.

In fact, I wonder if this male aggression that trans rights activists go on about is something we haven't looked at closely enough.

Trans rights activists claim male aggression is a huge problem for transwomen. I can imagine it might be. And part of that might be homophobia. I wonder if part of it is also that many men will have strong ideas about men who attack or harass women and children. And that certainly seems to be the narrative this chap filming is presenting.

Trans rights activists claim that this is prejudice. It might be. In some instances, like the one filmed here, it might just be a man who is observing, and sees men hassling/kettling/pushing women, and adults advocating for puberty blocking children, and drawing his own conclusions.

She is the ‘partner ‘ of a very loud angry bloke in a dress ( who hadn’t bothered to shave for the event). She says nothing and stares mainly at the ground throughout the vid. He says plenty.

She needs rescuing, really

Thanks for sharing this video. I watched it and also Mr Menno's which is a good companion as it shows other angles and context.

It's also interesting to see other protests happening on the same day and to compare protestor behaviour and police presence.

The thing which has struck me most is that they were seemingly only heckled very lightly and filmed by a small number of people before some of them responded aggressively. And yet when women have tried to meet and hold events either in public or even private, they have withstood much more extreme interference without becoming aggressive.

For what it's worth I don't think the heckling is necessary as the billboard and simply being present and filming what is said and trying to engage with people (like Mr Menno did) do the job of bringing things into the open.

No, but whether you like it or not it is a hallmark of the “trans rights” movement globally.

This is fairly standard behaviour at any gathering:

I agree.
I wish TRAs would bog off. They are immensely unhelpful.
I wish trans people weren't being fed a line that they are likely to be hated and attacked "just for existing" when obviously that isn't generally the case. Though any trans person reading this board would be getting the message that they are all tarred with the same brush as the extremists amongst them.

I do think that trans people "just existing" shouldn't have to specifically say they disagree with attacking women or throwing piss or be assumed to be radical. And I do think there is a great deal of conflation on these board of ordinary trans people quietly living with trans criminals, trans activists etc in a way that stokes dehumanisation and radicalisation.

@Diverze Most trans people are not at rallies attacking women and men. Please check your language. Just like you claim for pronouns, it matters. "Some of the delicate flowers", fair enough (though the contempt drips from your use of "delicate flowers" to describe trans women).

Firstly no. I won't check my language. You don't get to tell me what to do. And FYI I wasn't talking about ALL trans people although I do stand by my claim that they are not the most vulnerable and marginalised in society. I was clearly refering to the 'delicate flowers' that can be seen in these videos that are nothing of the sort. And yes I do have contempt for them. Can they not just march and shout their slogans or even interact with others (like women at LWS events do. You don't see people at women's marches telling attendees to not talk or engage with anyone) without lunging at people and trying to break their signs and cameras?
Ah I almost forgot. No debate

@CuriousAlien For what it's worth I don't think the heckling is necessary as the billboard and simply being present and filming what is said and trying to engage with people (like Mr Menno did) do the job of bringing things into the open.

I found billboard mans video. He's called the edge of the matrix on YouTube and he did try to engage with them in discussions. He's local to me but I'd never heard of him until now. He was mostly polite and although he made a few mistakes he does seem to know his stuff. He did manage to engage with a couple of people on the march but he was constantly interrupted by people telling others not to speak to him (they always do that. Why? If you have a good argument let people hear it.)
I thought he was very brave getting in the middle of all that. He's only tiny and I kept expecting him to get seriously attacked but he only got a few shoves this time and someone trying to grab his board and camera.
Compared with Charlie Vietch who is far more sarcastic and confrontational, this man does try and have a dialogue but most don't seem to want to. They seem to prefer violence

'I do think there is a great deal of conflation on these board of ordinary trans people quietly living with trans criminals, trans activists etc in a way that stokes dehumanisation and radicalisation.'

Nobody is fussed about a trans person 'quietly living '. We are concerned by males threatening women and women's rights, and activists threatening children's wellbeing.

Perhaps more visibility of these trans people who are 'quietly living' would help, only by definition they are less visible and vocal.

@NC28 Seen that at the time. Billy Moore, Edge of the Matrix (the guy who wears the trans sandwich board) and MKR Audits (one half of the lesbian couple you mention) all put videos on YouTube of it. Only one we were missing was Charlie Veitch, I think.

Charlie was there. I watched his video of it yesterday to compare. It was his usual provocative style and the YouTubers all started off at the Pro Palestine march which is held every week. Manchester is such a delight on Saturdays.
Charlie was the one that started shouting Trams Rights when they caused them to come to a standstill. He's far more offensive than sandwichboard man but he's a big fella and these cowards tend to pick on women or people.smaller than them

TRA means trans rights activist. They ain't all even trans! They're the fundamentalist end of the gender identity belief system.

They're the IDF of your analogy.

I can attest to this.

When it is an organised 'counter' protest to women's events, and there are many of these throughout the year, this is the behaviour shown by these mainly male protesters. Very loud, often with amplifiers and playing noise makers, lots of yelling and aggressive and intimidatory behaviour. Though this image shows a very light crowd, from my own experience it is anything from 50-100 or more at a time.

These are not one off events. This behaviour is very frequent.

Thankyou for this. I too found it interesting to see how 'average' men perceived them.
One could argue that gender criticals are biased in their views, so it's interesting to see the reactions of ordinary blokes who know little to nothing about this movement.
Billy along with Charlie Vietch and others main comments were critical of what they saw as 'big men in dresses' endangering women and trying to groom children. And that's what the public will continue to see if these activists carry on like this.

"Though any trans person reading this board would be getting the message that they are all tarred with the same brush as the extremists amongst them."

Then they are not reading the threads with any depth. The majority of posters are very clear about who are the people they are discussing and criticising. That is almost every time, male people who seek to access female single sex provisions. Female people with transgender identities are generally supported in the discussion for those provisions.. So, if readers are getting that message that you describe, it is because they perhaps don't bother to seek to understand the issues being discussed.

"And I do think there is a great deal of conflation on these board of ordinary trans people quietly living with trans criminals, trans activists etc in a way that stokes dehumanisation and radicalisation."

I think you are continuing to make generalised statements while telling others that they are making generalised statements that you don't agree with. Which would be hypocritical surely?

The most aggressive long haired bloke (meatloaf 😁) I'm not sure he's trans. According to a youtuber there (can't remember which) he's one of those Omnicause protestors that's at every march going. The TRA and Pro Palestine marches seem to have merged into one in Manchester at least . Although it seems to be more of a one_way system as I rarely see the Muslim guys attending the trans specific demos.

I agree with the main point you are making. However, it is common human behaviour to defend, or at least keep silent about, the language and actions of people we see as part of our own tribe - and trans identity is particularly tribal. The trans people and their allies that I know personally, struggle even to admit that women (and some others such as relatives of trans people) are badly impacted by the behaviour of trans identifying people and activists. Because the trans cause is righteous, so the activists can be excused. And because the cause is righteous, coercive behaviour is acceptable.

Churches have often tried to hide abuse, and in doing so have enabled it. I see some signs that they are learning their lesson, that failure to deal with and condemn abuse is being complicit, and that it ends up in even more reputational damage than if they admitted there was a problem in the first place. As far as I can see, the trans tribe is still in the early phase of denial that there is any problem at all.