Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gems from the Trans Legal Project response to EHRC consultation

350 replies

MyAmpleSheep · 22/06/2025 16:55

The Trans Legal Project's response to the open EHRC consultation is available here:
https://www.translegalproject.org/blog-1

I was going to write a more detailed critique of it, but realized that working through what seem to me to be all of the legal errors contained in it would about a weeks's work.

If this is tldr for you, then don't worry - you have nothing to fear from this organisation's response.

Here are some gems though (TLP text in bold, my comments underneath.)

Use of the term biological sex is confusing.
Uh, no, no it isn't.

What happens if the individual refuses to confirm their birth sex?
Then you don't have to let them in; same as if they refuse to tell you their name or age, if those are relevant and required to provide the service.

What happens if an individual does not know their birth sex (e.g. they are intersex)?
People with DSD's know their biological sex, even if they later turn out to be mistaken. An honest mistake as to one's biological sex is exculpatory for using the wrong service. If any person is not sure, then they can take the trouble to find out.

How does a service provider determine the individual has answered objectively falsely if the individual has made a full medical and legal transition?
There's no such thing as a "full" medical transition, but if someone lies about their biological sex then they're just lying liars who lie. Just like someone who lies about their age, or other relevant condition of entry. Just because some people are lying liars, it doesn't invalidate the idea of responsibly confirming that your service is being used by the correct people.

What about trans people who “pass”? Based on this example those trans people who “pass” are permitted to use single-sex services
No, they're really not. If a "passing" trans person sneaks into a service for someone not of their biological sex, they're lying liars who lie, and shouldn't be there. No further consequences flow. See my previous point.

Following FWS, anyone who experiences sexual attraction is now bisexual.
This is too stupid to comment on further.

There needs to be a new example showing that trans women who breastfeed are protected by the pregnancy and maternity protections on the basis of case law.
Trans women can't breastfeed in the correct sense of the term.

First, a women’s group can choose to admit cisgender and transgender women. It is not direct sex discrimination as individuals of both legal sexes are admitted.
It is direct sex discrimination. A group that allows in all white people and only black people who shave their heads is still directly discriminating on the grounds of race, even though some black people are admitted. Similarly, a single token Irish person in your service is not a failsafe talisman to prove you're incapable of unlawful discrimination against Irish people (nationality).

Third, although single legal sex women’s organisations are possible in law, they are impossible in practice. The reason is that if the association does not check the birth sex of everyone who joins, they risk allowing a trans woman to join and losing the protection of the single-characteristic exception.
No, they're really not impossible in practice. If an organization confirms prior to membership with an applicant that their biological sex is female, and takes reasonable steps to confirm this, then its protection against a claim for unlawful discrimination is not diminished by the fraudulent membership of lying people who lie.

There should also be an example that it is unlawful when a single-sex women’s association tries to restrict membership to only same-sex attracted people as only single-sex characteristic associations are allowed. There seems to be a belief that lesbian only associations are lawful under the EA 2010; they are not.
Explicitly, associations for members who share more than one protected characteristic are permitted. That someone in authority could write that lesbian-only associations are unlawful under the EA2010 is quite ... surprising.

Many trans men take testosterone and pound for pound are as strong as cisgender men. Concerns about the safety of trans men taking part are misfounded and transphobic.
If a sporting body is unworried about the safety of women entering men's sport, they can permit them to do so, and it would be called a mixed category. Nobody is suggesting that's unlawful.

Trans women who play women’s sport these days tend to have to meet strict eligibility requirements. They are unlikely to have a significant advantage. If they do, it will be almost impossible to prove they have the advantage because they are trans.
They have a significant advantage not because they are trans but because they are men.

A domestic violence support group set up separately for men and women under sched. 3 para. 26(2). is being setup on the basis of bio-segregation. But trans men and women would not be able to attend the group for their lived sex due to the operation of the law and it would be completely inappropriate in practice for them to attend the group matching their birth sex. Indeed, if they were permitted to attend groups matching their birth sex the rational for separate sex groups would be undermined and para. 26 would not apply. As a result, trans people would be completely excluded from the service. Completely excluding trans people from the service would not be proportionate so para. 26 could not apply.

Completely excluding trans people from a service could absolutely be proportionate, if to include them in the service provided for either sex would make that service insufficiently effective, and providing a separate service for trans people is impractical (such as insufficient numbers for a group service.) For the same reason that a women's refuge service is not also obliged to provide a parallel men's refuge service. Schedule 3 para 28 explicitly permits a service provider to discriminate against gender-reassigned people in the context of single- and seperate-sex services, if a proportionate means to a legitimate purpose.

Trans women have been placed in women’s hospitals wards for over 50 years without issue. Further, every year thousands of cisgender men are placed in women’s wards due to pressure on the NHS. As a result, excluding all trans women from a women’s ward is not proportionate and the sched. 3 para. 27 exception cannot be used.
Excluding all "trans women" from a women's ward is explicit in the meaning of a women's ward. Historical failure correctly to place patients in single-sex wards doesn't excuse the practice.

The example should explain that a bio-segregated hospital ward is unlawful and instead a trans inclusive women’s ward should be operated instead.
I make no further comment on the claim that a single-sex ward is illegal.

. Gyms, changing rooms and hospital wards are not examples where a bio-segregated service is lawful.
Again, no further comment from me on the proposition that single-sex changing rooms are illegal.

First, this example stereotypes all Muslim women as being hostile to trans women and as such is racist. There are many varied Muslim communities, only some of which have transphobic views.
Objecting to a male person in a female changing room is not demonstrating hostility. To suggest that "only some" Muslim communities have transphobic views appears to be engaging in the same racism the author imagines in the EHRC text.

Imagine a trans man who has fully transitioned and is every inch a man.
Except the inches that count, eh? Nudge nudge, wink wink...

There's a lot more on the single-sex services section which mostly consists of repeating the same points (not unreasonably, given the way the consultation is structured) but I don't feel like typing out the comments again and again, and this post is already too long.

As I said, I don't think we have too much to worry about from this organisation's submission.

Trans Legal Project | Blog

Trans Legal Project | Blog

https://www.translegalproject.org/blog-1

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 23/06/2025 10:56

GallantKumquat · 23/06/2025 10:54

I'm confused, I quoted the SC judgement which says; "The duty-bearer cannot ask whether it has been obtained." Are you saying they are in error, or am I missing something?

They appear to be in error.

I have asked friends who are GC and lawyers what they make of this but had no reply.

HayleeHarison · 23/06/2025 10:58

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

spannasaurus · 23/06/2025 10:59

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

The term menstruation originated from the Latin word mensis, which means month, and the Greek word mene, which refers to the moon. In ancient times, the menstrual cycle was thought to be related to the moon's cycle because both cycles last around 29 days.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 23/06/2025 11:04

GallantKumquat · 23/06/2025 10:54

I'm confused, I quoted the SC judgement which says; "The duty-bearer cannot ask whether it has been obtained." Are you saying they are in error, or am I missing something?

IANAL but they appear to be in error. It's disclosure of possession of a GRC obtained in an official capacity that is the offence not inquiring about one.

It's more accurate to state that "The duty-bearer cannot require production of a GRC to demonstrate the individual has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment."

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 23/06/2025 11:04

Two squirrels already! 🐿️ 🐿️

Chersfrozenface · 23/06/2025 11:05

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Nothing to do with 'men'.

A mid 17th century coining, from the late Latin menstruat- ‘menstruated’, from the verb menstruare, from the Latin menstrua meaning menses, period.

menses is related to the Latin mensis 'month', in turn related to the ancient Greek mene 'moon'.

It's very useful to ascertain the facts, every time.

tobee · 23/06/2025 11:05

It really is an attempt to flood the zone, isn't it? Trying to make it seem complicated when it's very clear.

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 23/06/2025 11:23

PrettyDamnCosmic · 23/06/2025 11:04

IANAL but they appear to be in error. It's disclosure of possession of a GRC obtained in an official capacity that is the offence not inquiring about one.

It's more accurate to state that "The duty-bearer cannot require production of a GRC to demonstrate the individual has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment."

Edited

I don't think it can mean that because Section 22 explains why the information might be obtained.

The purpose would not be to determine whether the individual has the PC of gender reassignment - because you don't need a GRC to be covered by the PC of gender reassignment.

Instead, the purpose would be to know the sex of the person.

Section 22 (3c) would seem to apply:

(3) A person acquires protected information in an official capacity if the person acquires it—

(a) in connection with the person’s functions as a member of the civil service, a constable or the holder of any other public office or in connection with the functions of a local or public authority or of a voluntary organisation,

(b) as an employer, or prospective employer, of the person to whom the information relates or as a person employed by such an employer or prospective employer, or

(c) in the course of, or otherwise in connection with, the conduct of business or the supply of professional services.


So far the hypothetical scenarios have focussed on someone presenting in person and wanting admission to a service.

Another scenario might be submission of a written application. If the business is a gym and wants to know whether the applicant should be given key-card or door code access to shower rooms for men or shower rooms for women then they need to know the sex of the applicant.

The duty bearer would then provide access to the appropriate showers but should only disclose the existence of the GRC if there is good reason:

(4) But it is not an offence under this section to disclose protected information relating to a person if—

(a) the information does not enable that person to be identified,

(b) that person has agreed to the disclosure of the information,

(c) the information is protected information by virtue of subsection (2)(b) and the person by whom the disclosure is made does not know or believe that a full gender recognition certificate has been issued,

(d) the disclosure is in accordance with an order of a court or tribunal,

(e) the disclosure is for the purpose of instituting, or otherwise for the purposes of, proceedings before a court or tribunal,

(f) the disclosure is for the purpose of preventing or investigating crime,

(g) the disclosure is made to the Registrar General for England and Wales, the Registrar General for Scotland or the Registrar General for Northern Ireland,

(h) the disclosure is made for the purposes of the social security system or a pension scheme,

(i) the disclosure is in accordance with provision made by an order under subsection (5), or

(j) the disclosure is in accordance with any provision of, or made by virtue of, an enactment other than this section.

GallantKumquat · 23/06/2025 11:29

PrettyDamnCosmic · 23/06/2025 11:04

IANAL but they appear to be in error. It's disclosure of possession of a GRC obtained in an official capacity that is the offence not inquiring about one.

It's more accurate to state that "The duty-bearer cannot require production of a GRC to demonstrate the individual has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment."

Edited

It would be a very surprising thing for them to be in error on it since it's an essential part of the case, i.e. you're presented with two men one of whom has a GRC which you can't ask him to produce but is female none-the-less. If you could ask him to produce it, it would weaken the justification for the SC's ruling. Surely that's something they would have been especially careful on. That's in fact exactly why I deferred to the ruling when I was constructing my hypothetical case.

Heggettypeg · 23/06/2025 11:31

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

No. They're transgenderism's opposite. Think about it.

SionnachRuadh · 23/06/2025 11:33

I don't know if there's been any case law around producing GRCs, and I suppose it might be legal to ask for one if there's a legitimate business need, but disclosing that information to a third party would fall foul of data protection.

The main problem is that public authorities have developed this habit of going beyond the letter of the law and treating GRCs as an ultra sensitive special kind of data protection, something akin to top secret intelligence, so any information regarding GRCs must be kept in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard’.

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 23/06/2025 11:35

GallantKumquat · 23/06/2025 11:29

It would be a very surprising thing for them to be in error on it since it's an essential part of the case, i.e. you're presented with two men one of whom has a GRC which you can't ask him to produce but is female none-the-less. If you could ask him to produce it, it would weaken the justification for the SC's ruling. Surely that's something they would have been especially careful on. That's in fact exactly why I deferred to the ruling when I was constructing my hypothetical case.

Edited

That is why I find it so bizarre that the SC seems to think that GRA2004 Section 22 says that you cannot ask someone if they have a GRC. It does not say that.

EDIT: but then the SC was not considering the GRA2004 - it was tasked with looking at the EA2010.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 23/06/2025 11:36

GallantKumquat · 23/06/2025 11:29

It would be a very surprising thing for them to be in error on it since it's an essential part of the case, i.e. you're presented with two men one of whom has a GRC which you can't ask him to produce but is female none-the-less. If you could ask him to produce it, it would weaken the justification for the SC's ruling. Surely that's something they would have been especially careful on. That's in fact exactly why I deferred to the ruling when I was constructing my hypothetical case.

Edited

Please can you show me the legislation that prevents a duty-bearer from asking about a GRC?

PrettyDamnCosmic · 23/06/2025 11:40

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 23/06/2025 11:23

I don't think it can mean that because Section 22 explains why the information might be obtained.

The purpose would not be to determine whether the individual has the PC of gender reassignment - because you don't need a GRC to be covered by the PC of gender reassignment.

Instead, the purpose would be to know the sex of the person.

Section 22 (3c) would seem to apply:

(3) A person acquires protected information in an official capacity if the person acquires it—

(a) in connection with the person’s functions as a member of the civil service, a constable or the holder of any other public office or in connection with the functions of a local or public authority or of a voluntary organisation,

(b) as an employer, or prospective employer, of the person to whom the information relates or as a person employed by such an employer or prospective employer, or

(c) in the course of, or otherwise in connection with, the conduct of business or the supply of professional services.


So far the hypothetical scenarios have focussed on someone presenting in person and wanting admission to a service.

Another scenario might be submission of a written application. If the business is a gym and wants to know whether the applicant should be given key-card or door code access to shower rooms for men or shower rooms for women then they need to know the sex of the applicant.

The duty bearer would then provide access to the appropriate showers but should only disclose the existence of the GRC if there is good reason:

(4) But it is not an offence under this section to disclose protected information relating to a person if—

(a) the information does not enable that person to be identified,

(b) that person has agreed to the disclosure of the information,

(c) the information is protected information by virtue of subsection (2)(b) and the person by whom the disclosure is made does not know or believe that a full gender recognition certificate has been issued,

(d) the disclosure is in accordance with an order of a court or tribunal,

(e) the disclosure is for the purpose of instituting, or otherwise for the purposes of, proceedings before a court or tribunal,

(f) the disclosure is for the purpose of preventing or investigating crime,

(g) the disclosure is made to the Registrar General for England and Wales, the Registrar General for Scotland or the Registrar General for Northern Ireland,

(h) the disclosure is made for the purposes of the social security system or a pension scheme,

(i) the disclosure is in accordance with provision made by an order under subsection (5), or

(j) the disclosure is in accordance with any provision of, or made by virtue of, an enactment other than this section.

It's not an offence to acquire GRC information. It's generally an offence to disclose GRC information obtained in an official capacity.

It would not have been an offence for Sandie Peggie to ask Dr Upton if he had a GRC. Even if he had a GRC & revealed to Sandie Peggie that he had one it would not be an offence for her to report that to 3rd-parties.

GallantKumquat · 23/06/2025 11:41

PrettyDamnCosmic · 23/06/2025 11:36

Please can you show me the legislation that prevents a duty-bearer from asking about a GRC?

As I said, I did not reason it out myself from section 22 of the GRA 2004, I deferred to the SC's interpretation in their ruling.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 23/06/2025 11:49

GallantKumquat · 23/06/2025 11:41

As I said, I did not reason it out myself from section 22 of the GRA 2004, I deferred to the SC's interpretation in their ruling.

I think that it's just a badly drafted throwaway line. It's also the sort of statement that the legal bods refer to as obiter dictum i.e. it's a comment made by the way that doesn't form part of the binding precedent.

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/06/2025 11:57

tobee · 23/06/2025 11:05

It really is an attempt to flood the zone, isn't it? Trying to make it seem complicated when it's very clear.

Trans ideology depends entirely on confusion and the pretence of complexity in order to survive. You should not attempt to think or to analyse; you should just accept without question or exception

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 23/06/2025 11:58

PrettyDamnCosmic · 23/06/2025 11:40

It's not an offence to acquire GRC information. It's generally an offence to disclose GRC information obtained in an official capacity.

It would not have been an offence for Sandie Peggie to ask Dr Upton if he had a GRC. Even if he had a GRC & revealed to Sandie Peggie that he had one it would not be an offence for her to report that to 3rd-parties.

Exactly. That's what I said. Sorry of that was not clear.

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/06/2025 12:03

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

That is an example of a pretty fundamental failure to understand the basis of what has come to be known as "being GC"; and yet which is typical of trans activists and allies, who falsely assume that people who reject the concept of 'gender identity' want people to adhere to sex based stereotypes. They absolutely don't. That is the whole point.

A man wearing a kilt, is just a man wearing a kilt. Wearing a skirt or a kilt does not make a man a woman, anymore than short hair and trousers turn a woman into a man. It's as if people have completely missed out on both the women's and the gay liberation movements of earlier times.

EuclidianGeometryFan · 23/06/2025 12:07

First, a women’s group can choose to admit cisgender and transgender women. It is not direct sex discrimination as individuals of both legal sexes are admitted.

This is a point that so many people are confused about (deliberately confused or genuinely confused).
If a "woman's group" admits transwomen, it is admitting some men (because transwomen are men). It cannot then refuse to admit "cis" or non-trans men. If you admit some men, you have to admit them all.
It would be discrimination against the non-trans men if you refused them on the grounds that they are not transwomen.

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/06/2025 12:07

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

That's the sort of thing men do in men's toilets, isn't it? I'm not sure women picking up women in the toilets is really a thing.

RareGoalsVerge · 23/06/2025 12:13

It's clearly unworkable for any single sex service to have a policy that allows transwomen to be included if they have a GRC because it would be entirely possible for a transwoman to be included, to not give permission for the existence of the GRC to be generally published and yet for female members to work out (due to not being blind) that the person is male. Any admin person who confirms thar no rules have been broken would de-facto be making an illegal disclosure. It's unworkable.

It's obvious from the text of the GRC that the intention was basically just to allow transwomen access to marriage equality and to pensions rights within their acquired gender. There are specific exclusions to say that the certificates don't make a man female for the purposes of sports, succession & inheritance, criminal acts that can only be perpetrated on or by persons of one or other sex. In terms of discrimination, the GRC refers simply that schedule 6 of the sex discrimination act applies, but that was fully repealed by the Equality Act 2010 which specifically lays out that where provisions are made separately for men and women, a GRC does not grant a male person access to the women's option.

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 23/06/2025 12:21

RareGoalsVerge · 23/06/2025 12:13

It's clearly unworkable for any single sex service to have a policy that allows transwomen to be included if they have a GRC because it would be entirely possible for a transwoman to be included, to not give permission for the existence of the GRC to be generally published and yet for female members to work out (due to not being blind) that the person is male. Any admin person who confirms thar no rules have been broken would de-facto be making an illegal disclosure. It's unworkable.

It's obvious from the text of the GRC that the intention was basically just to allow transwomen access to marriage equality and to pensions rights within their acquired gender. There are specific exclusions to say that the certificates don't make a man female for the purposes of sports, succession & inheritance, criminal acts that can only be perpetrated on or by persons of one or other sex. In terms of discrimination, the GRC refers simply that schedule 6 of the sex discrimination act applies, but that was fully repealed by the Equality Act 2010 which specifically lays out that where provisions are made separately for men and women, a GRC does not grant a male person access to the women's option.

Given that the Supreme Court has ruled on what "sex" means under the EA2010, any service that has a policy of including both women and TW (men) is not a single sex service - whatever it might say on the tin.

It is mixed sex so all men are eligible.

MyAmpleSheep · 23/06/2025 12:24

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 23/06/2025 10:56

They appear to be in error.

I have asked friends who are GC and lawyers what they make of this but had no reply.

Michael Foran (obviously I’m a fan of his as I keep referring to him) wrote somewhere - I can’t remember where - that this is actually a mistake of law by their Lordships and an error (without consequence) in the judgement.

I think this myth arose out of Article 8 rights, that someone’s trans status is a private matter. I’d argue that it’s definitely a private matter except where it’s properly not a private matter, such as in the provision of single sex services. Clearly, if I’m making you a wedding cake then your trans status is none of my business. If I’m giving you the pass code to a male or female changing room then it may very well be my business.

OP posts:
POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 23/06/2025 12:31

MyAmpleSheep · 23/06/2025 12:24

Michael Foran (obviously I’m a fan of his as I keep referring to him) wrote somewhere - I can’t remember where - that this is actually a mistake of law by their Lordships and an error (without consequence) in the judgement.

I think this myth arose out of Article 8 rights, that someone’s trans status is a private matter. I’d argue that it’s definitely a private matter except where it’s properly not a private matter, such as in the provision of single sex services. Clearly, if I’m making you a wedding cake then your trans status is none of my business. If I’m giving you the pass code to a male or female changing room then it may very well be my business.

Thank you. It has been bugging me that I hadn't seen anyone refer to this and that I did not get a reply when I asked for comment (not from M Foran but others).

It felt as if there was a reluctance to acknowledge that the SC could possibly have made a mistake because to do so would undermine the ruling - which obviously it does not.

The fact that the SC wording is being cited does show that it is causing problems though. I hope this is rectified in the EHRC Guidance.

Which reminds me - I must finish completing my response to the Consultation!