"We have always been here"

[DiamondThrone]

Been noticing this a lot. It seems to be the new #TWAW #nodebate #bekind, after those didn't work.

I mean - lots of things have "always been here". Like women, for instance 😄

Just interested in new terms that arise, and how they are used to try and shut down comment.

Why?

A DSD is a disorder of sexual development.

That means the person was not supposed to develop that way.

DSDs are rare and have nothing to do with trans people, who simply believe that their identity doesn't match their genitalia.

No No No.

I am gender atheist, not just gender critical, though I am certainly critical of gender, a ridiculous construct.

I do not believe that humans have genders. All of us have a sex, which is binary. Our sex gives us bodies that can do some sex-specific things and not do other sex-specific things, particularly things ultimately related to reproduction.

It should not limit us in any other way. We can wear any clothes we want, cut our hair or not, do any job we qualify for, have any hobbies we want. Endless possibilities unlimited by our sex. And we don't have to have a 'gender'.

It's relevant because people like to use a biological sex binary to disprove the existence of trans people (what you're born as, you are) but if sex can be a mixture of traits, surely this is arbitrary?

Trans people are also rare! They're like 1% of the population or something aren't they?

it's not really though

if you're lucky enough to have a healthy body that has developed correctly (as the vast majority of people do), you will make eggs or you will make sperm. you will be a man or a woman. and you won't be able to change that.

if you have a developmental disorder, you will still be a man or a woman, you just might not be able to produce viable sperm or eggs

So are you claiming transpeople are a third sex? An undiscovered new sex? Really? That’s a new take.

Nobody is arguing against the existence of trans people.

Trans people are just people who believe they are or ought to be the opposite sex to what they actually are.

They have a philosophical belief that we do not share.

Their sex is as unambiguous as yours or mine.

Yes. This is a condition where you have a 46XY individual who has no SRY, and therefore develops as an infertile female.

This is where the difference between determining sex and defining sex is essential.

It does not, however, prove that sex is a spectrum, or have anything to do with gender identity ideology.

I really do not like DSDs being used to support gender identity ideology. So many TRAs do this and it is dishonest.

how does the fact that some individuals are unfortunate enough to be born with bodies that do not develop correctly prove that Dave the plumber with his healthy male body is really a woman called Sarah because he feels like a woman inside?

the two things are utterly unrelated

I'm not sure it's that simple though.

Depending on the difference in development, people can have a mixture of traits. Lots of GC people argue it's chromosomes that define your sex.

But I doubt if they met a DSD affected person who was mostly physically female except for her chromsomes (and lived as a girl) that they would insist she was male?! If they did I would think that was not only cruel but kind of silly?

heavens to murgatroyd

DSDS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH TRANS PEOPLE

this is a bit boring now I'm afraid

No.

I know that people who identify as trans exist. That is 100% true.

They do not change sex.

I have not seen any good arguments for changing single-sex spaces to single gender spaces.

@springbirdss what @BernardBlacksMolluscs said times 20000000

Plus with the 8 billion genders, that’s a lot of different spaces needed.

You are confusing facts with opinions. We all have opinions, they don’t have to align, that doesn’t make them facts. Laws should be based on facts, not opinions or feelings. Especially those laws that are material to the safety, privacy and dignity of women and girls.

You KNOW people can’t change sex, because everyone knows it, you just don’t want to believe it, or you don’t want to SAY you believe it, for some reason known only to you. Maybe you are an attention seeker, or a trans person who has fallen for the lies spread by Stonewall et al. Whether you choose to accept reality is up to you, but it doesn’t change that reality if you don’t. And it doesn’t stop me having the ‘opinion’ that GI rots people’s brains.

how does the fact that some individuals are unfortunate enough to be born with bodies that do not develop correctly

It's called 'Differences of Sexual Development', it's not a disorder or an illness. Why does it have to be unfortunate? It's just diversity.

As for Dave the Plumber, I can't speak for them, they don't resemble any of the trans women I've personally known.

I'm starting to think there might be a generational divide in experiences here? I'm a young adult, so every trans person I know has always felt different.

But I imagine it would be a hugely traumatic undertaking to transition later in life, to face ridicule and bewilderment, social ostracisation, hate crime. I would want to support Dave the Plumber

‘I really do not like DSDs being used to support gender identity ideology. So many TRAs do this and it is dishonest‘. And it is very upsetting for people with DSD’s.

This is something we try to give as little thought to as possible because it isn't relevant to gender critical feminism.

Unfortunately we do have to keep talking about it because some very tedious people insist on shoehorning it in to every discussion about trans people, presumably to keep us off nice, straightforward topics like whether male rapists should be allowed to identify as women and be housed in women's prisons.

It's unfortunate because it generally means that the choice about whether to have children or not, which most people take for granted, is denied to them.

Could we just clear something up. A female does not make eggs. She is born with them.

You don't understand the difference between determining sex and defining sex.

If we take the Swyer 46XY example, the individual is defined as female (despite the presence of the Y chromosome) because she developed the phenotype that produces large gametes (determined by genetics - the lack of SRY) even though she is infertile (needed two Xs for ovarian development).

‘I'm starting to think there might be a generational divide in experiences here’

😂 I have family members of 17, 24, 25, 27 and 30 and they all think it’s bullshit, as do their friends. Next cliche please.

@springbirdss, if you genuinely want to understand about sex development and why it is not actually complicated or fluid, there are lots of very clear science videos here:

https://www.theparadoxinstitute.com

I should also say, many if not most people with disorders of sexual development really don’t like their disorders being used as a “gotcha” or support for gender ideology. It’s fairly offensive.

But it's not up to GC people to determine whether your DSD-affected person is male or not. It's not our call. It's biology's call. It's irrelevant what we think.

you think being born with a potentially infertile body is 'just diversity'? I mean I think you'd think it was just diversity if your baby had 3 feet as well (you didn't answer me on that one, so I'm assuming, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) so I'm not sure your view on what constitutes a 'standard' human body is all that reliable.

Dave's fictional, you can use male pronouns for him. he'll be fine.