"We have always been here"

[DiamondThrone]

Been noticing this a lot. It seems to be the new #TWAW #nodebate #bekind, after those didn't work.

I mean - lots of things have "always been here". Like women, for instance 😄

Just interested in new terms that arise, and how they are used to try and shut down comment.

you are of course correct! typing in haste

👍

All I've ever said is that the existence of DSDs contradicts the notion that there is a rigid biological binary between men and women, based on specific combinations of traits. I believe that's all I've said.

Someone born with a variety of 'male' and 'female' traits might identify as a woman for example, but by some of your logic they wouldn't qualify as a woman, even if they did have some biological female traits.

How is this not relevant to the debate, when you claim that there is no ambiguity in biological sex?

No, I believe that sex can be fluid and ambiguous!

Because you do not understand what DSDs are. From the website I linked above:

…intersex conditions are simply anatomical variations within males and within females, not new sexes. Or, in the words of developmental biologist Dr. Emma Hilton, "DSDs are variations of anatomy, not variations of sex."

Chromosomal disorders of sex development exist. It is not wrong, unkind or inaccurate to say so.

The first D in DSD can stand for disorder or difference. Neither is incorrect.

Please stop with the ageism.

Are you now bringing 'passing' into the conversation? Do you really want to bring in ideas such as the Dutch protocol to get a more 'passing' result?

All everybody else has ever said is that DSDs do NOT contradict there is a rigid biological binary between men and women.

There is a clear scientific definition of what constitutes 'being male' and 'being female'.

You refer to 'male' and 'female' traits - could you describe how these differ from the biological differences which are very clear?

Your assertion is wrong. DSDs affirm the sex binary. As I wrote before, you don't understand the difference between determining something and defining it.

A helpful link has been posted. It would really help you understand this concept if you read it.

Someone born with a variety of 'male' and 'female' traits might identify as a woman for example, but by some of your logic they wouldn't qualify as a woman, even if they did have some biological female traits.

If that person is female then they would be a woman if that person is a male then they are a man no matter how they identify.

People who have been diagnosed with a DSd will have had their chromosomes and genes tested so they will certainly know what sex they are. No need for them to identify as anything

I don't mean to come across as ageist, I'm just pointing out that I seem to be coming form a different point of view? That's okay, isn't it?

I'm not talking about passing, I'm talking about the stage in a person's life when they come out at trans, and how this might affect their experience.

I don't view DSDs as disorders as long as they don't adversely affect the person with the condition. If the person is in good health and happy with themselves then what's the issue. Variety is the spice of life

Do you also believe in ghosts and fairies?

Uhhh of course I believe in fairies

Back to the topic.

I've wondered how easy it would be to trace the phrases that pop up back to their original sources and see how many or few sources that is.

Another I've noticed MPs saying all of a sudden is "trans and intersex constituents" instead of "lgbtq+ constituents "

Are you claiming humans can change sex? 😂😂😂😂😂

Unfortunately, DSDs can cause lifelong health issues, and if someone wants their own children, but they are infertile due to their DSD, that can be very traumatic.

Every human being I have known has always 'felt different'. It's part of the process of becoming an adult, having to develop our own personality and individuality, no longer a child following the guidance of our family and teachers, trying to work out for ourselves who we are, working out how our new body works.

That is universal.

Imagining this had to conform to some pixie-dust crapology called 'gender' was a 2010s invention. Fortunately the youngsters seem to be growing out of it.

It's not. A tiny number of people have DSDs, which are sex specific.

A man cannot have MRKH syndrome, for example.

Different points of view are as welcome as the flowers in May, but there is a catch: only some points of view are scientifically verifiable. Like that human sex is binary and immutable.

That is something that people of any age can understand.

Of course people with DSDs should have a happy and healthy life - although unfortunately, they do tend to be at higher risk of a number of health issues, not just infertility.

That means finding out ASAP what their biological sex is, so it doesn't come as a nasty shock to them late in life, e.g. when the Olympics re-introduce cheek swabs to test for biological sex.

Well it isn't.

You are either configured to make large gametes or small gametes. There is no in between or 'fluidity''.

Some people believe the earth is flat.

It's funny how I've never met anyone who grew up on a farm (with livestock) who thought that sex was 'fluid'.

I guess that Spring could have grown up on a magical fairy farm, but for those with sheep or cows, no-one ever thought that a ram could become a ewe, or that a bull might give birth.

Exactly.

I'll believe in the trans arguments when the dairy industry cottons on to them. Not before.

‘Someone born with a variety of 'male' and 'female' traits might identify as a woman for example, but by some of your logic they wouldn't qualify as a woman’

And next on the bingo card we have ‘regressive, sexist, stereotypes’!

Of course farmers are very aware of the complexities in sex - why don't you ask them about freemartin cows?

"Genetically, the animal is chimeric: karyotypy of a sample of cells shows XX/XY chromosomes. The animal originates as a female (XX), but acquires the male (XY) component in utero by exchange of some cellular material from a male twin, via vascular connections between placentas: an example of microchimerism"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemartin

‘I'm talking about the possibility of sex being complex and fluid like everything else in the natural world’

Please state examples of all these ‘complex and fluid examples’.