Reflections on Trans Arguments

[LimeFinch]

I've noticed a lot of general discourse about trans people that is based on misinformation, some of it dangerous, most of it born out of ignorance, so here's a handy reference to counter some of the claims I've seen.

Trans People are extremist! That's wot I done heard!
Transgender extremism doesn't exist - it's just a right-wing talking point used to discredit legitimate healthcare and equality efforts.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-un-view-trans-rights-much-needed-common-sense
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/11/hilary-cass-trans-children-review
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/02/gender-critical-beliefs-under-the-microscope

Puberty Blockers are Dangerous! My total lack of medical knowledge says so!
Puberty blockers are often lifesaving interventions. They're prescribed only after long assessments involving NHS gender clinics, parents, and specialists. They are fully reversible and shown to reduce the risk of suicide in young people with persistent gender dysphoria.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/tonic-psh-consultation-analysis-report.pdf
https://www.bmj.com/content/386/bmj.q1638.short
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/resources/interim-service-specification-specialist-gender-dysphoria-services-consultation-response
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/news-events/news/rcpch-responds-publication-final-report-cass-review

I Heard They're Changing Kids' Genitalia!
No people under 18 are getting genital surgery in the UK. NHS policy and private clinics alike restrict this to adults.
Indeed, more cisgender teens receive breast reduction surgery on the NHS than trans teens receive chest masculinisation surgery. The procedures follow similar approval processes, yet only one group is routinely scrutinised.
https://pure.johnshopkins.edu/en/publications/breast-surgery-in-adolescents-cisgender-breast-reduction-versus-t
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/10/revealed-thousands-of-trans-surgeries-carried-out-by-nhs/

They're in Women's Sports! I read it on teh internets!
There are only a small number of openly trans athletes competing at a professional level in the world, and none are dominating their fields.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517
https://feeds.bbci.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

But, but, but, Women's Sports! No men!
Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/13/how-the-fa-banned-womens-football-in-1921-and-tried-to-justify-it
https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/en/publications/health-gender-and-inequality-in-sport-a-historical-perspective

Ok, but Trans-women are Stronger. That ain't Fair!
There is no consistent biological advantage for trans women in elite sport. Oestrogen therapy significantly reduces muscle mass, strength and performance over time. Regulations often require minimum hormone levels and transition periods before competing.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59312313

Trans-Women are Men!!!!!! Any fule knowe that!
Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female. No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male. That’s another right-wing straw man argument.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/resources/lgbtq-hubs/trans-hub/the-truth-about-trans

Trans History is Different to Women's History
The idea that trans women have a “separate history” to cis women echoes the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood.
https://blog.bham.ac.uk/socialsciencesbirmingham/2024/03/08/international-womens-day-trans-women-cannot-be-left-behind/
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/trans-and-disability-justice-how-are-our-struggles-linked
Tall women, Black women, trans women - these are all adjectives describing different types of women. Every woman’s experience of womanhood is unique. If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition. So trans women cannot be excluded from womanhood on this basis.

Trans-Women are Men in Dresses! I read it in the Daily Mail!
Crossdressing is not the same as being trans. Many cis men crossdress and are not trans.
https://fiorry.co/glossary/crossdresser/

But Anybody can be Trans in an Instant! I'm scared!
The risk of coming out as trans due to internalised homophobia and sexism is a real thing but is not as common as many would have you believe. That’s why the NHS has a structured care pathway with long waiting times and assessments. No one can simply walk in and access hormones or surgery. Many people are left in limbo for years unless they are in crisis or suicidal.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/
https://transactual.org.uk/trans-lives-21/

Organisations are Convincing Kids They're Trans! Think of the Children!
No one is trying to “convince” people they’re trans. If you feel deep discomfort with the sex you were assigned at birth, you might be trans - but that’s for you to explore, not for anyone else to decide. The queer community is generally very good at spotting people who are dealing with internalised issues - no one wants anyone to transition unless it’s truly needed. This whole “kids being convinced” thing is another empty scare story.
https://transactual.org.uk/healthcare-professionals/inclusive-healthcare/
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/

Now, I'm very aware of the MN reputation for shutting down the threads - and removing the accounts - of anyone who doesn't go along with the anti-trans-hate-cult, but for the short time this thread remains up it's worth taking some time to actually look at the links, to think about the status of trans-women in the current society, and consider how this judgement - and the subsequent interpretation of the same by those who are a little hard of thinking - might reflect on us as self-assumed rational, reasonable human beings.

SO CUTTING!!! How will we ever revcover.

Pathetic. Grow up

1. It would only be hypocritical if it were me doing the opposite of what I was recommending in my post.

2. You missed the "just" in my "not just insult" but engage in debate.

R.e. 2) Not my style but if I hypothetically said the OP has not read the article they are quoting and is therefore an idiot that would not be hypocritical of me.

Women don't have to be nice and smile all the time, you know, especially when presented with bullshit attempts to trample over our rights.

Of course if there are any posts on here that don't follow the Terms of Use and Talk Guidelines you are welcome to report them.

99.9% of threads are pro-women. Not 'anti trans'. Unless you are admitting to us what we all know; being pro-trans = anti-women.

Thankfully, as poll after poll after poll proves, we are the overwhelming majority. This is an 80-20 issue, and in some polls, a 90-10 issue. In our favour, in case you were deluded to believe in yours. So you and your anti-women and hateful misogynistic cult are the ever-decreasing tiny fringe minority.

Awwww bless. Did you not get the response you wanted? Oh dear. Maybe it was your tone. Have you tried using softer words and smiling more? #bekind innit?

If only women would just do as they’re told eh? Cope.

😂😂

Oh wow, OP actually came back. Didn't expect that.
@LimeFinch with regards your comment of:
Or, put another way, "I found all them long words and complicated statements tricky. Plus, there was am awful lot of links to read."
Don't worry, we get it. But take heart, the nice thing about education when you're an adult is you don't have to engage with it or admit you find it challenging. You can just ignore it.
I'm going to pass this back to you because I did actually read it and look at the links. They don't say what you say they did.
Could you tell me, for example, which link shows that puberty blockers are reversible and reduce suicide? None of the links given show that and I did read through them. In fact, some show the exact opposite of what you're arguing.
One of the reasons I did read through is because I am fascinated by the open misinformation peddled by the trans movement. I can only assume you're thinking we wouldn't read it properly.
I saw this on Facebook previously so I'm assuming you didnt read it yourself and just copied and pasted?

Yes, it was clearly Lime who "Found all them long words and complicated statements tricky."

So much so that he didn't bother to read them.

Thank you for taking one for the team.

Although I suspect Lime has been banned for twattishness. And if not, soon will be.

The feverishness with which some people try to stick it to women, is generally their undoing in terms of behaviour.

I am cut to the quick by your wit

Women must always be nice to people who come to their space and slag them off and scold them.

Got it.

Then report 🤷🏻

The OP starts with

I've noticed a lot of general discourse about trans people that is based on misinformation, some of it dangerous, most of it born out of ignorance, so here's a handy reference to counter some of the claims I've seen.

And yet it's us scolded for our hypocrisy and are not allowed to fall around laughing at the display of nonsense being sincerely spouted at us along with the insults.

We are supposed to just leave it unchallenged and take it lying down.

Okay then. Got it.

If we're talking about hypocrisy, we should give a mention to claiming to care about 'oppressed' groups, while thinking it's OK to imitate the expression of people who haven't had the privilege of a good education, who may be from a disadvantaged socio economic background, or have learning challenges, in order to insult people who disagree with you. Its perfectly obvious the people on the thread do not speak that way, have no difficulty with vocabulary or understanding. So who are you parodying OP? And why are they fair game?

I think it is also the sign of a failing trend / argument...

• state things that on the surface look correct (misinformation - here is the correction / facts), without being able to substantiate it.
• put up loads at the same time to give research fatigue in the hope that people won't check and realise that there is no substance to their argument
• having done that - shout loudly that they are right / have proven it in the belief that shouting and bullying will win the day...

It simply confirms the TRA position as invalid / unsubstantiated / inaccurate - it helps kill their argument, not support it, but they have been so used to the bullying and lies still working that they find it hard to retrench and try and find anything factual as a foundation for their arguments.

I’m assuming that they got Chat GPT to do their thinking for them.

To be fair to Lime, they're only doing what WPATH and the American Paediatric Association have done - link up a load of studies and evidence that says one thing and write conclusions that say something else.

There was something going off in my brain that I wasn't able to put my finger on when reading the OP sub headlines.
That's wot I done heard!
My total lack of medical knowledge says so!
I read it on teh internets!
Any fule knowe that!
I read it in the Daily Mail!
I'm scared!
Think of the Children!
You've nailed why my brain was niggling me while reading those thank you. There's this middle class? metro? Tarquin? nanny state loving, left wing attitude that the working class are thickos who should be ignored.Too stupid to be paid any attention to. Too stupid to know any better. ( The sad irony being the political left was borne out of representing the interests of the working class. ) If you have any concern about socio economic factors like immigration or how the EU operates as an institution, thats proof positive that you're an idiot. It's a very stereotypical outlook based on prejudice towards those who think differently, and it seems to be the recreational drug of choice for a certain demographic addicted to looking down on people they see as morally and thus intelectually inferior. The parts I highlighted above of the OP reek dripping of this prejudice to me.
Your post @5128gap helped me crystalise the thought that had eluded me thanks.

Yes, this.

I would also add that, speaking as a middle class, millennial, Russell Group university educated, left of centre, remain voting, home owning, higher rate tax-paying professional whose former newspaper of choice was the Guardian, I am particularly well placed to confirm that prestigious universities and well paid professions are far from being idiot-free zones.

If you have a humanities degree from a top ten university and work in the media, and you think Team Pronoun must be on the right side of history and must know what they are talking about because they have all the right credentials, whereas the working class Karens and Kevins of this world scoff at the idea that a woman can have a penis, consider this.

Perhaps the reason the Karens and Kevins don't believe humans can change sex is not because they are too thick to understand complex ideas, but because they were never in an environment where charlatans with PhDs like Judith Butler and Sally Hines were considered experts in their completely idiotic academic discipline and allowed to spout absolute bullshit completely unchallenged.

Sometimes, being in a prestigious academic environment alongside people who get paid to talk total nonsense completely unchecked can actually make you less smart, not more.

Exactly - it's hardly cutting as no-one here speaks like that (also 'that's what I done heard' is like yokel American - I'm thinking Cletus from the Simpsons).

Usually there's at least some half-hearted attempt to crowbar in 'prosecco' or something.

At a stretch, people who have been online for a decade or more might remember 'teh internets' as a hilarious proto-meme, and the Molesworth thing - if he hadn't fucked it up - probably hits the right cultural era... but there's no actual point being made, is there? It's just 'here are some ways I will jokily dismiss people'.

Indeed. Whenever less privileged people object to some frolic of fancy that only the advantaged have the time for, and that typically causes them further detriment, they're told it's because they're too stupid to understand it, so keep your nose to the grindstone, and your mouth closed and let your betters speak. This whole debate has been characterised by that attitude towards women, so its not surprising to see it directed towards working class people and those without the benefit of a certain level of formal education.

It reminded me a wee bit of the lad who came to offer 'the mums' help with computer technology (and got the answer "oh thank god you're here, I've just been bashing the keyboard with my tits and hoping for the best").

I think he was well-meaningly patronising rather than intentionally sneering, though.

As a lurker and open to sensible debate on this, your post has just undermined all the arguments you are trying to make. As a biological female, I come from a long line of women who have been belittled, ignored and given less opportunities than biological men and that weighs heavy on the shoulders of all biological females. And now, your condescending post with patronising language only insults me and shows your disrespect for women. What were you trying to achieve?

I have a trans daughter - that doesn't equal being anti-women. Most of the threads on here are about trans people. It just really surprises me that a feminist board can't find anything else to talk about.

Very, very good. And yes I do see this with economics, the plebs can't understand mass immigration is for the greater good. Ironically "they" don't really understand economics either.

It's really hard to know how to respond to the OP's claim that "we" are dumb and uneducated.

It also leaves me in a dilemma whether to whip out my alleged credentials (I have a first in Philosophy and Economics from Oxford) in response to the OPs attacks. It feels like saying 'ha ha ha I actually do have a massive dick, suck it!"

But I don't see myself as superior to anyone or elsewhere based on getting a degree. I don't think about what someone's background is when replying to their post and I don't assume I'm right based on the size of my you know what.

Unfortunately as I'm sure we know bonkers science has long been used to discredit women i.e. women have smaller brains therefore are dumber!