Reflections on Trans Arguments

[LimeFinch]

I've noticed a lot of general discourse about trans people that is based on misinformation, some of it dangerous, most of it born out of ignorance, so here's a handy reference to counter some of the claims I've seen.

Trans People are extremist! That's wot I done heard!
Transgender extremism doesn't exist - it's just a right-wing talking point used to discredit legitimate healthcare and equality efforts.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-un-view-trans-rights-much-needed-common-sense
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/11/hilary-cass-trans-children-review
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/02/gender-critical-beliefs-under-the-microscope

Puberty Blockers are Dangerous! My total lack of medical knowledge says so!
Puberty blockers are often lifesaving interventions. They're prescribed only after long assessments involving NHS gender clinics, parents, and specialists. They are fully reversible and shown to reduce the risk of suicide in young people with persistent gender dysphoria.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/tonic-psh-consultation-analysis-report.pdf
https://www.bmj.com/content/386/bmj.q1638.short
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/resources/interim-service-specification-specialist-gender-dysphoria-services-consultation-response
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/news-events/news/rcpch-responds-publication-final-report-cass-review

I Heard They're Changing Kids' Genitalia!
No people under 18 are getting genital surgery in the UK. NHS policy and private clinics alike restrict this to adults.
Indeed, more cisgender teens receive breast reduction surgery on the NHS than trans teens receive chest masculinisation surgery. The procedures follow similar approval processes, yet only one group is routinely scrutinised.
https://pure.johnshopkins.edu/en/publications/breast-surgery-in-adolescents-cisgender-breast-reduction-versus-t
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/10/revealed-thousands-of-trans-surgeries-carried-out-by-nhs/

They're in Women's Sports! I read it on teh internets!
There are only a small number of openly trans athletes competing at a professional level in the world, and none are dominating their fields.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517
https://feeds.bbci.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

But, but, but, Women's Sports! No men!
Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/13/how-the-fa-banned-womens-football-in-1921-and-tried-to-justify-it
https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/en/publications/health-gender-and-inequality-in-sport-a-historical-perspective

Ok, but Trans-women are Stronger. That ain't Fair!
There is no consistent biological advantage for trans women in elite sport. Oestrogen therapy significantly reduces muscle mass, strength and performance over time. Regulations often require minimum hormone levels and transition periods before competing.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59312313

Trans-Women are Men!!!!!! Any fule knowe that!
Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female. No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male. That’s another right-wing straw man argument.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/resources/lgbtq-hubs/trans-hub/the-truth-about-trans

Trans History is Different to Women's History
The idea that trans women have a “separate history” to cis women echoes the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood.
https://blog.bham.ac.uk/socialsciencesbirmingham/2024/03/08/international-womens-day-trans-women-cannot-be-left-behind/
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/trans-and-disability-justice-how-are-our-struggles-linked
Tall women, Black women, trans women - these are all adjectives describing different types of women. Every woman’s experience of womanhood is unique. If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition. So trans women cannot be excluded from womanhood on this basis.

Trans-Women are Men in Dresses! I read it in the Daily Mail!
Crossdressing is not the same as being trans. Many cis men crossdress and are not trans.
https://fiorry.co/glossary/crossdresser/

But Anybody can be Trans in an Instant! I'm scared!
The risk of coming out as trans due to internalised homophobia and sexism is a real thing but is not as common as many would have you believe. That’s why the NHS has a structured care pathway with long waiting times and assessments. No one can simply walk in and access hormones or surgery. Many people are left in limbo for years unless they are in crisis or suicidal.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/
https://transactual.org.uk/trans-lives-21/

Organisations are Convincing Kids They're Trans! Think of the Children!
No one is trying to “convince” people they’re trans. If you feel deep discomfort with the sex you were assigned at birth, you might be trans - but that’s for you to explore, not for anyone else to decide. The queer community is generally very good at spotting people who are dealing with internalised issues - no one wants anyone to transition unless it’s truly needed. This whole “kids being convinced” thing is another empty scare story.
https://transactual.org.uk/healthcare-professionals/inclusive-healthcare/
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/

Now, I'm very aware of the MN reputation for shutting down the threads - and removing the accounts - of anyone who doesn't go along with the anti-trans-hate-cult, but for the short time this thread remains up it's worth taking some time to actually look at the links, to think about the status of trans-women in the current society, and consider how this judgement - and the subsequent interpretation of the same by those who are a little hard of thinking - might reflect on us as self-assumed rational, reasonable human beings.

The rational world of Reddit

😂😂😂

There has to be a website or hashtag along the lines of #batshitteryfoundonreddit

It's weird how the LimeBike Collective are publicly stating their reaction count. Clearly they are more used to Reddit or similar where "winning" is based on everyone seeing who got the most likes / up/down votes.

It's a real shame. It conditions people to think in terms of snippy combacks rather than reasoned arguments and rewards replaying crowd pleasing greatest hits over original thought. Catchphrases are great for comedians and Reddit but not so good for forming coherent and persuasive arguments.

Limey sweetie, I'm sorry to have to tell you that - what was it when you posted earier, about 25? - is really not a big count for an OP. Most of the regulars here can guess at least half of the names you'll have got.

But even if it was, so what? We already know the world has plenty of TRAs and soft hearted useful allies. Doesn't make them actually right. It's not like whether women exist or not is dependant on a vote 😂

What works here is is posters making coherent arguments that can stand up to challenge, then engaging with opposing arguments, understanding them and refuting them rather than just ignoring or strawmanning them.

I'm sorry I can't hear you.

I have given @FlirtsWithRhinos a LIKE for this comment!

She can now tot it up with all her other LIKES, which after all is the important thing here!

Size of LIKES matters, right?

Meanwhile, back over in the rational world, the number of private, positive reactions to the OP perfectly satisfy us that this thread, and the statements provided - and backed up - at the outset, have merit

I expect these private positive reactions go to another school

@DiamondThrone I've LOVED your post, because LIKE doesn't seem to exist. However, I do feel that LOVE is too strong, so don't let it go to your head.

The totting up of ‘likes’ and attempting to use that to suggest that you are winning an argument is just playground stuff isn’t it?

Imagine if politicians or academics just sat around comparing who got the most likes on Twitter or who has the most FB friends rather than having debates 😂

And we I have LOVED your post back, because we I think that is how we I get validation

I can sail along on that for a little while, but will soon need topping up with more validation.

Seriously, I've always disliked likes on any platform. At least here they aren't public (something Elon also got right).

.

And there is. Or, at least, an account on Twitter that goes by "Reddit Lies"

https://x.com/reddit_lies

It's not just about the whole transgender thing, but includes all sorts of batshittery found on reddit.

There was a MN arguing script on GitHub.

Bless them.

I see the OP returned twice more this afternoon and had both posts deleted by Mumsnet.

I presume they ignored my suggestion to engage in actual arguments. Not just insult people who disagree with you.

I would not be surprised if the OP takes this as further evidence of the allegedly anti trans Mumsnet referenced in their original post.

Of course they will. But their world is changing. They are thrashing around now - their old accusations, insults and scolds don't seem to work.

Oh dear. Never mind.

This is close enough

https://saidit.net/s/MeanwhileOnReddit/new/

No doubt.

But I suspect they're on a final warning, so can take it any way they like.

Amazing how these twits who think they can out argue women on here, can't even manage a thread without falling at the first hurdle.

If making a personal attack is your only argument, then you don't have one.

Frankly, I don't think they're the slightest bit interested in the debate - or even an argument, for that matter. They just want to vent their spleen at women.

Exactly.

It is quite fun though, watching them thrashing as the tide recedes.

Oh yeah, totally

It’s an example of … transplaining!

but seriously - the misogyny and racism in your post - can you really not see it, @LimeFinch?

Must go and have a look! Probably cheer me up.

And yet the regular posters on here continue to insult and demean people who don't agree with them 🤷

Oh noes! Are the ladies not lovely?

Hypocritical is the word I was thinking of.