Do you support transitioning at all?

[UnlockedXCX]

I somewhat do, I will admit. I think it's okay if an adult wants to take hormones, dress as they'd like to, be treated as M or F, or even change their name. I'll respect it all. However I don't agree with them being allowed into single sex spaces or conversations (a gay trans person is functionally a straight person, despite what they say, and a gay FtM shouldn't try to date gay guys for example).

I question if this is a common view or is it niche in these more gender critical spaces.

I am talking about how men type. I didn’t mention women.

Sure but for cosmetic stuff like hormone treatment you could have saved up for a few years and then you would have maybe got in on insurance ? Like I said, I'm in a similar situation to you. I want cosmetic treatment and surgery for loose skin removal and much as I would like the NHS to hand it to me on a plate I think ethically it's a bit dubious. I mean some people are awaiting help for cancer , diabetes, MS, suicidal tendencies etc. You could have saved up money to "live your best life now" as you're doing. I mean I'm glad you're happy, but I wouldn't want to see lots of trans people getting it on NHS, just because they feel a bit down about their gender

Body dysphoria is the root of many issues, often weight related, thin people who think they are fat, and fat people who don't see themselves as obese.

However we do not encourage young people who are already under weight to restrict their diet.

So why should we encourage body dysphoria when it comes to sexual organs?

The butchery in bottom surgery and the known risks alone should prevent these surgeries ever happening, yet there's medic ego and money that facilitates this. Gender reassignment medicine and surgery has become the new golden goose for big pharma - a patient for life. As for the butchery and mutilation of children and young adults bodies, its absolutely abhorrent.

Exactly it's self harm. Why should we pay for people to hurt themselves . It's like supporting euthanasia or assisted suicide for humans. If people want to hurt themselves we can't stop them and it's very sad that anyone feels that desparate but the people who are trying to survive should not have to pay tax to support what is encouraging harm to people .

Well quite, and we know girls and young women are especially vulnerable to it. It's just that lots of people seem to think it's completely different if the word "gender" is mentioned.

If a teen girl went to her parents and said, "give me the money for a boob job or I'll kill myself, because I believe I was meant to have big boobs", they wouldn't rush to affirm her, they'd assume that her problem was not her body shape but her mental health.

Look at the girls who hang around the Trans UK subreddit, and what their idea of "healthcare" is, and it's basically the same, except they want the impossible goal of becoming boys.

It reminds me very much of the trend for lobotomy and leucotomy in postwar America. The doctor promoting that, who engineered the lobotomy of poor Rosemary Kennedy (the president JF's sister) which took her from being a neurodivergent but lovely and lively young woman to a broken shell unable to walk, whose obsession for money and ego caused a world of heartache not just to the Kennedy family but thousands of other mental patients. It's chilling.

I'm asking honestly, how does wanting to alter your natural body (that isn't sick or damaged) to suit your dysphoria not mirror anorexics? Or, if there arrives a group of people who feel very strongly that they need to cut off their noses because they have nose dysphoria (I don't know, I'm making something up) would you consider that healthcare?

@AYoungTransWoman calm down with the histrionics, nobody is saying they want the LGBT community to go away. This is not Nazi Germany it is 21st century UK, where there are equal rights for all. We simply don't see why it can't be how it used to be, where men who dressed as women just got on with their life and inconveniencing nobody. They were happy to use the spaces of their birth sex. Enjoy your rights just make sure you aren't trampling over vulnerable people doing it.

Why not enjoy life and stop feeling like a victim all the time ! It must get very tiring and be very bad for your blood pressure levels.

Sure go for it. But it doesn’t make you the female sex. And children should not be allowed to transition.

I don't think there's any hate or harassment . We are all adults who are able to take a bit of robust debate. I've not seen any abuse on here.

I wish we could go back 20 years when this wasn't a thing
I'm so sick of it
Did the s c ruling not make it clear for everyone.
What speaks volumes to me ,is the fact so many m to f trans keep their penis.
If you were so sure you were a woman ,you would have it removed
But I often end up on the wrong side of ticktok where they discuss being a woman with a penis,and are happy to call themselves a woman while keeping a penis.
To me that's just ridiculous,they want to have their cake and eat it .
I remember taking the kids shopping late one night , unusual for us ,and there was a 6 foot man in a dress ,heels and 1980s makeup.
He was shopping,we were shopping, everyone was getting on with their lives .
This was like 20 years ago .
Kids and I didn't bat an eyelid ,apart from eyeing up his makeup.
But now it's push push push ,insert yourself in female spaces ,demand female rights ,start using offensive words like cis ..and stupid bloody pronouns.
And I've gone from someone who wasn't bothered quite chilled ,to feeling angry and no sympathy at all.
And I just think the loud voices have ruined things for genuine people who were quietly living their life as the opposite sex.
Now anything to do with the subject just pisses me of

Nazi Germany were quite happy with transvestites - just so long as they weren’t Jewish or homosexual.

Gendering someone the way you see them isn't like violence or abuse. I'm fat . That's a fact . If I asked someone "am I thin" and they said "no you're fat that's just a fact. It may hurt my feelings but it won't cause any actual harm. It's stating facts. Abuse would be "no you're a fat cunt, I would rather be dead than look like you." No one has said anything equivalent to name calling to this dude. Let's stop feeding the victim complex. No wonder there's a mental health crisis and lack of resilience in this generation .

A man who has had their penis removed, or blown off by a land mine, is still a man.

Yep

One thing I've only learnt recently is that the most popular surgery for trans identifying males is a boob job.

At what point are we going to acknowledge that for these particular men, it's not body dymorphia, it is a sexual fetish?

That thought has crossed my mind to

Exactly, real oppression happened to us/them respectively. This is stating facts.

I've been giving a dude some kind advice about eating steak and maybe trying homeopathy . Not shoving them in a gas oven. They have a choice not to engage.

they actually held their own quite well, I didn't see them presenting as particularly phased by it . Real bullying requires a victim, I don't see any victims in this thread, we are all adults here. Not delicate sensitive types.

That poster was getting off on our reactions. Why would a man hang out on this subforum? this wasn't a dad wanting parenting advice.

There's lots of men on Mumsnet
I did a thread about it years ago ,told them to join dad's net
But apparently everyone is welcome.
There's always someone on a wind up

I've no problem generally with the dads who come here in good faith asking for advice. It's the men on a wind up I have an issue with.

how can these people believe they're women? In my experience real trans people don't tend to keep forcing this belief on us.

This is another hidden harm of pretending people can transition- theres a generation who truly believe that the treatment is more than cosmetic.

That its life saving, or actually changes their sex. Or they wont look as bad as the older transitioners?

You are paying taxes and NIC - good for you. So are the rest of us, and we want our taxes to be used wisely. Some of us will pay in a lot more than we ever take out, and for others it will be other way round, depending on luck and circumstances. That's just how it is.

Let's state the blindingly obvious. When the NHS was created in 1947, the principle was that healthcare would be free at the point of need to everyone who needed it. However, since then the population has grown, life expectancy has gone up and medical science has come up with lots of extremely expensive new treatments and drugs. There is also far more recognition than there was of mental health problems and the need to treat them. One way of trying to keep costs under control is that the NHS is supposed to use an evidence-based approach and only provide treatments and drugs that pass rigorous assessment of how effective they are.

Unfortunately, there isn't much research about how effective medical treatment is for gender issues - cross-sex hormones, puberty blockers, genital surgery, breast implants for males, double mastectomy for females. Such research as does exist is of variable quality and it's not all that current. Clinical practice has changed out of all recognition in the last 20 years. Numbers seeking treatment have rocketed. Lots of people seeking treament now are adolescent and very young females, who were hardly ever referred to gender clinics until the last 20 years. Any suggestion that this is a social contagion has been shouted down. Research isn't keeping up with changing practice, not least because aggressive activists have done their level best to get researchers and clinicians sacked or discredited if they express any reservations about affirming gender without exception. In the studies that have been done, lots of patients are 'lost to follow up' and nobody is keeping any accurate records of detransitioners.

All of which adds up to a problem for the NHS. A vocal group of patients and their supporters demand treatments which are are known to be poorly evidenced, and which will turn previously healthy bodies into less healthy ones which will need lifelong medical care. There is no other area of medical practice in the UK where the patient tells an NHS doctor what they want and the NHS doctor is expected to comply, regardless of whether they agree with the patient's self-diagnosis.