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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Policy Audit - working party -Thread #3

732 replies

KnottyAuty · 12/06/2025 20:57

NHS Policy Audit - working party -Thread #3

Original thread #1 here:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5291237-nhs-policy-audit-working-party?page=1
Thread #2:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5322494-nhs-policy-audit-working-party-thread-2

This is a thread about “keeping the receipts” on NHS Policies prior to the Supreme Court ruling on 16th April 2025.

Our working theory is that there were no single sex spaces for NHS Staff or Patients in the entire country before that date, having all been removed by stealth.

We are aiming to prove this by auditing websites and policies for all the UK trusts and using the results to raise public awareness.

As well as recording what has happened historically, the information will form a baseline so we can check which Trusts comply or defy the judgement in due course...

We are working around the country region by region. If you fancy getting involved in a bit of grassroots feminism then please do join in to help!?

Each trust takes about an hour to research and you can upload online without giving any personal details away. Comment below and we can give you the link to an online survey - it changes for each region.

Thanks soooo much to all the vipers who have helped so far and @twoloons for doing a great job with the thread wrangling!

NHS Policy Audit - working party | Mumsnet

Following on from Thread #23 of the Peggie v NHS Employment Tribunal. Anyone who wants to help with survey/audit of paperwork against the Equality Act...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5291237-nhs-policy-audit-working-party?page=1

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KnottyAuty · 18/06/2025 23:43

FarriersGirl · 18/06/2025 18:17

We will get a link sent out on the DM by @KnottyAuty and you can have University Hospital Southampton NHS Trust. The instructions are embedded in the form. Let me know if you get stuck.

DM sent with your link @redmugbluemug
Thank you!

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KnottyAuty · 18/06/2025 23:47

Blackmetallic · 18/06/2025 23:35

Kent and Medway NHS and Social Care Partnership Trust - I'm about to submit it, there was very little information available on their website so a bit of digging was needed. Policies were only available through FoI but I thought parts of their Trans Equality in the Workplace Policy were worth flagging up on here: (bold type added by me)

5.6 Supporting trans employees and service users
5.6.1 Trans employees and service users must be treated with civility, dignity and respect with consideration of the following:
• Pronouns – ensure you use the correct pronoun for the individual e.g. he/she/they/ze
– this list is not exhaustive. Ask the individual how they would like to be addressed.
Religion or belief – no-one should use their particular religious beliefs or cultural views about trans people to refuse to treat, work with or share facilities with a person who is trans.
• Toilets and changing facilities – trans people should not be prevented from having access to the facilities that affirms their gender identity. Gender neutral facilities may be available as an alternative for any person whether trans or not, who do not wish to share with others. This may be especially important for some people who identify as either men or women or identify as both and would be uncomfortable entering facilities designated ‘ladies’ or ‘gents’.

6.6 Discriminatory practice
6.6.1 Trans people may experience some or all of the following examples of discriminatory
practice:
• People refusing to associate with or ignoring them because of their trans status.
• Not being addressed in their affirmed gender or not having their new name used.
• Having their personal life and relations probed into.
• Having malicious gossip spread about them.
• Having confidential information relating to their trans status released without their approval.
• Having confidential information relating to their trans status released by someone they have disclosed to.
Not being allowed to use facilities that are appropriate to the gender in which they live.
• Being treated less favorably than others in regard to sickness or other absences.
Being refused access to services, facilities or premises due to prejudice from employees or other service users.
• Being verbally abused or physically assaulted because of their trans status.
• People refusing to associate with or ignoring them because of their religion, belief or cultural views.
6.6.2 As an employer and deliverer of care for trans people, KMPT should ensure that health and life experience are not diminished but rather enhanced through celebrating and embracing diversity.

4.2.3 Once a full GRC is issued to a person, their legal sex/ gender henceforth becomes for all purposes their acquired gender – including for marriage and civil partnerships purposes and for employment in posts where a Genuine Occupational Qualification to be a particular sex/gender applies

4.2.5 They do not need to show a GRC in order to change their day to day documentation or to use the toilet facilities of their acquired gender.

Religion or belief – no-one should use their particular religious beliefs or cultural views about trans people to refuse to treat, work with or share facilities with a person who is trans.

So close but so unlawful!
Clearly if you refuse to sit in the canteen with your trans colleague because they are trans then that is not OK. However that is completely different to not wanting to share a legally protected single sex space with someone of the opposite sex - whether you are male or female the same applies.

Thanks for flagging this example. We have seen a few similar but it is useful as a reminder of how very one-sided and unbalanced many of these policies are. Good intentions gone very wrong

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YellowRoom · 19/06/2025 12:35

I've submitted South Central Ambulance

Couldn't find policies related to this.

Supreme Court statement - I've italicised a bit that made me laugh, must have come as a real shock for these health care professionals.
'On 16 April 2025, the UK Supreme Court made a ruling to define “women” as biologically born females. This will come as difficult news for many, especially our trans colleagues and those who support inclusion and equality in all its forms. It’s a ruling that feels like a setback for the values we hold dear – diversity, respect, and the right for every person to be recognised for who they are. It is a decision that impacts on many NHS values not least the NHS People plan, and NHS People Promise that state a core value of “belonging in the NHS”, with a particular focus on tackling discrimination where all are welcome, celebrating diversity in all its forms.
At SCAS, we want to make it clear, this decision does not change our unwavering commitment to our trans colleagues, patients, and communities. You are seen, respected, and valued. Your identity is valid, and your place within our organisation is not defined by a narrow legal ruling, but by your humanity and the contributions you make every day...'

A Trust employee who chairs the SCAS LGBT Network is also Deputy Chair to the National Ambulance LGBT Network - on committee with Steph Meech of Trans Paramedic poetry fame.

Picture of Pride ambulance on Trust homepage
'This year’s event saw the inaugural appearance of the SCAS LGBT+ and staff networks pride vehicle, which was kindly sponsored by the SCAS Charity and our union colleagues across Unite, Unison, GMB and the NMC.
This vehicle has been designed thanks to the kind donations of sponsorship from our Union colleagues Unite, Unison, GMB and NMC...' (this is what they're spending subs on).

I'll take another Trust if there's one going pl @FarriersGirl

FarriersGirl · 19/06/2025 13:44

@YellowRoom nothing meaningful seems to sink in does it? Thank you for being so diligent with these. Next one for your delectation is University Hospitals Sussex!

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/06/2025 13:49

@YellowRoom, I recently had the pleasure of being transported via ambulance to my local NHS A&E. If the paramedics had rocked up in a Pride ambulance, I can tell you I'd have driven myself there.

YellowRoom · 19/06/2025 14:39

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/06/2025 13:49

@YellowRoom, I recently had the pleasure of being transported via ambulance to my local NHS A&E. If the paramedics had rocked up in a Pride ambulance, I can tell you I'd have driven myself there.

Firsly, hope you're doing okay. And secondly, it was a decommissioned ambulance.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/06/2025 14:43

YellowRoom · 19/06/2025 14:39

Firsly, hope you're doing okay. And secondly, it was a decommissioned ambulance.

Firstly, doing much better now thank you!

And secondly, my point still stands 🤣

FarriersGirl · 19/06/2025 15:58

Glad you are OK @TwoLoonsAndASprout
A bit of overview for you and @KnottyAuty Upthread I said I would do the 3 community health organisations that are not NHS. I have done them now and they are marked up on the jotform as not NHS. The forms are rather sparse, they are mainly community healthcare providers and don't do a lot of inpatient care anyway. All 3 have some EDI info that I have read, but they are not subject to FOI requests as they are private companies.
I have had a good dig for any Stonewall links etc and found nothing. My impression is that all 3 are quite business like and focused on the job they do. All 3 are Good in CQC land and they all seem to be rainbow free zones.

KnottyAuty · 19/06/2025 23:56

FarriersGirl · 19/06/2025 15:58

Glad you are OK @TwoLoonsAndASprout
A bit of overview for you and @KnottyAuty Upthread I said I would do the 3 community health organisations that are not NHS. I have done them now and they are marked up on the jotform as not NHS. The forms are rather sparse, they are mainly community healthcare providers and don't do a lot of inpatient care anyway. All 3 have some EDI info that I have read, but they are not subject to FOI requests as they are private companies.
I have had a good dig for any Stonewall links etc and found nothing. My impression is that all 3 are quite business like and focused on the job they do. All 3 are Good in CQC land and they all seem to be rainbow free zones.

Very interesting - thanks!

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redmugbluemug · 20/06/2025 05:07

@KnottyAuty Thanks for DM with instructions 🙂

Cantunseeit · 20/06/2025 08:25

@FarriersGirl I can do another Trust or two over the next few days if there are any left unallocated, or if anyone is struggling to find time amongst all the real life happenings to do theirs

Cantunseeit · 20/06/2025 08:45

KnottyAuty · 16/06/2025 18:25

Worth a look at this video from the Royal Free about research and the badge scheme which was prompted in part by a complaint from a TW patient in 2012 on an acute mental health ward. See about 3.17m in to miss the intro. K

Edited

Took me a while but I finally watched this video. Shocking state of affairs but seems to have been considerable mission creep from the Rainbow Badge scheme between then and now. Can’t see removing the word ‘’mother” from maternity services unless qualified with the addition of “birthing person” being a priority back then!

it would be interesting to re-redo the original survey with the same cohort (not the same individuals but same group) to see what impact it’s all had on them.

Mipe · 20/06/2025 11:05

FarriersGirl · 18/06/2025 07:37

Morning @Mipe could you have a go at Southern Health Foundation Trust. The instructions are all on the form on the link you have been sent. Thank you!

Hi @FarriersGirl, the Southern Health Foundation Trust has merged with a few others into the Hampshire and Isle of Wight Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust (in 2024). Would you like me to look at the new one?

FarriersGirl · 20/06/2025 14:46

Mipe · 20/06/2025 11:05

Hi @FarriersGirl, the Southern Health Foundation Trust has merged with a few others into the Hampshire and Isle of Wight Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust (in 2024). Would you like me to look at the new one?

Yes please!

FarriersGirl · 20/06/2025 15:51

Afternoon Vipers - just a note to say we have done really well on the South East, its been a great bit of team work and there are only a few to come back. I am well aware that life gets in the way sometimes and we have keen people ready to pick up another trust or two. @Bluebootsgreenboots @thenoisiesttermagant @teawamutu @theeyeballsinthesky @socialdilemmawhattodo if you are struggling please let me know [dm if you prefer]

Latest list

Acute trusts in the South East region

Ashford and St Peter’s Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust - Cantunseeit
Buckinghamshire Healthcare NHS Trust -Cantunseeit
Dartford and Gravesham NHS Trust - Theeyeballsinthesky
East Kent Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust - Needmoretinfoil
East Sussex Healthcare NHS Trust - Yellowroom
Frimley Health NHS Foundation Trust - Cantunseeit
Hampshire Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust - Yellowroom
Isle of Wight NHS Trust - Cantunseeit
Maidstone and Tunbridge Wells NHS Trust - socialdilemma
Medway NHS Foundation Trust - Yellowroom
Oxford University Hospitals NHS Trust - thenoisiestteramgant
Portsmouth Hospitals University NHS Trust - bluebootsgreenboots
Queen Victoria Hospital NHS Foundation Trust - cantunseeit
Royal Berkshire Hospital NHS Foundation Trust - Yellowroom
Royal Surrey County Hospital NHS Foundation Trust - cantunseeit
Surrey and Sussex Healthcare NHS Trust - yellowroom
University Hospital Southampton NHS Foundation Trust - redmugbluemug
University Hospitals Sussex NHS Foundation Trust - yellowroom

Community and mental health trusts in the South East region

Berkshire Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust - withsilverbells
Central Surrey Health - FarriersGirl
First Community Health and Care - FarriersGirl
Kent Community Health NHS Foundation Trust - Cantunseeit
Kent and Medway NHS and Social Care Partnership Trust - Blackmetallic
Medway Community Healthcare - FarriersGirl
Oxford Health NHS Foundation Trust - cantunseeit
Solent NHS Trust - FarriersGirl
Southern Health NHS Foundation Trust -Mipe
Surrey and Borders Partnership NHS Foundation Trust - teawamutu
Sussex Community NHS Foundation Trust - teawamutu
Sussex Partnership NHS Foundation Trust - teawamutu

Ambulance trusts in the South East region

South East Coast Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust - Yellowroom
South Central Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust - yellowroom

YellowRoom · 20/06/2025 19:13

Hullo - I've submitted University Hospitals Sussex - in the Stonewall top 100. This is very long!

Supreme Court:
Support for our trans members of staff has also never been more important, following the recent UK Supreme Court ruling concerning the definition of ‘sex’ in the Equality Act 2010. The ruling does have implications for our policies concerning single-sex wards, services and facilities, for both patients and staff... We are committed to delivering safe, compassionate and lawful services for all patients and staff. We acknowledge the concerns the ruling has raised, particularly for our trans colleagues and patients, as well as recognising the need for women only spaces...

Perinatal Care for Trans and Non-Binary People 2020
Toilets and changing facilities can be labelled according to who can access them, but this should not be in terms of sex or gender. For example, toilets in the Postnatal Ward should be labelled as “Birthing Women & People Only”, rather than “Women Only”.
Many references to say that 'pregnant people' may want to refer to their 'front hole' rather than vagina.

Trans Guidelines staff and patients - mad overreach:
While an increasing number of organisations (and teams at this Trust) have introduced gender neutral facilities in recognition of gender diversity and safety of all people, not all areas have these... no-one has the right to ask a trans employee to leave a facility; if a person feels uncomfortable they should consider leaving and seeking appropriate advice from our Equality, Diversity and Inclusion team.
It is a privilege to not have to worry about which pronoun someone is going to use for you based on how they perceive your gender. If you have this privilege, yet fail to respect someone else’s gender identity, it is not only disrespectful and hurtful, but also oppressive.
Key Policy Implications:
Criminal Justice: Recording and addressing hate crime and harassment of nonbinary people, and ensuring that police are well-trained in this area. Our Trust uses a system called Datix for recording incidents...
Culture, Media and Sport: Improving the visibility of non-binary gender, and ensuring that all public facilities are accessible to non-binary people.
At the time of writing the GRA is being reformed by the Government. The main areas being supported for reform are a GRA that: Requires no medical diagnosis or presentation of evidence for trans people to get their identity legally recognised. Recognises non-binary identities. Gives all trans people, including 16 to 17 year olds, the right to self-determination, through a much simpler and more streamlined administrative process.
From example letter to colleagues:
I have been seeing a specialist doctor for a while, who confirms what I have recognised for many years. I am a man, and I always have been. Because I do not look like a man, I have lived with a feeling of great discomfort, which I have tried to ignore, repress or overcome.

One of the FOIs about Stonewall:
Withholding info due to commercial interests:
Section 43(2) of the FOIA provides an exemption from disclosure of information which would or would be likely to prejudice the commercial interests of any person, including the public authority holding it... Guidance from the Information Commissioner’s Office recommends that public
bodies should contact third parties for their view about the disclosure of information relevant to them. This is particularly important where information could be perceived to be commercially sensitive. The Trust took this action and Stonewall expressed a series of concerns about the disclosure of this information and indicated that should disclosure occur, it would be likely to prejudice their commercial interests for the following reasons.
It is Stonewall’s view that their “Diversity Champions programme is the leading employers' programme for ensuring all LGBT staff are accepted without exception in the workplace. This programme is important to Stonewall as it provides valuable income for the charity, while at the same time furthering its charitable objects.” Stonewall felt that the disclosure of their comments regarding policy language would be prejudicial to Stonewall’s commercial interests in two ways. First, it would allow competitors access to Stonewall’s expertise in relation to inclusion in NHS trusts. They explained that there are a wide range of workplace development organisations who deliver training, guidance and/or accreditation on LGBTQ inclusion (e.g. National Centre for Diversity, Go1, MyHRToolkit, etc.) and that other organisations providing similar services are likely to do market research around their competitors, and would be likely to use any information gained in relation to Stonewall from FOIA disclosures to strengthen their own marketing advantage. Second, it would allow other similar public authorities (and potentially other organisations) that are considering becoming Diversity Champions the benefit of Stonewall’s expertise without becoming Diversity Champions themselves. This would deprive Stonewall of the income from such bodies and more broadly impact on Stonewall’s ability to ‘achieve its charitable objects’. It was Stonewall’s view that there is ‘a real and significant risk that the prejudice described would occur’.
Section 43 is a qualified exemption, therefore the public interest in withholding the information should outweigh the public interest in its disclosure. The Trust considered the views of Stonewall and applied the public interest test relevant to this exemption. We accept there is public interest in ensuring that the Trust receives value for money relevant to the organisations we do business with. Disclosure of information about the feedback we have received from Stonewall regarding our policies would go some way in demonstrating this value, which would serve the public interest in accountability regarding the spending of public funds. Disclosure would also serve the public interest in openness and transparency about the Trust’s decision making process as it relates to this policy work. This level of public interest does not, however, outweigh the prejudice that disclosure would likely cause to Stonewall and the Trust in a broader sense. There is a strong public interest in protecting the commercial interests of companies and that they should not be disadvantaged as a result of doing business with the public sector. Disclosure would also likely damage relations between the Trust and Stonewall, giving rise to a loss of confidence on the part of Stonewall (and other similar organisations) to do business with the Trust in the future due to the fear that this may lead to disclosure of information that would have a negative impact on their competitiveness. It is the Trust’s view that there is a strong public interest in ensuring that business of this nature is carried out in an environment where free and fair competition is possible, that good working relationships are maintained with the organisations we work with, which in turn allows the Trust to negotiate the best value for public funds. For these reasons the Trust has decided that it is in the overriding public interest to withhold this information at this time.
Additionally, Stonewall’s view is that their Workplace Equality Index (WEI) feedback is provided to organisations in confidence and that disclosure would represent a breach of that confidence. They explained that this is made clear from the privacy statement on the submission which notes that “Any scoring or comments made on the submission is confidential between Stonewall and the applicant/organisation…”. Their view is that such feedback has been generated using Stonewall’s expertise and experience, is unique to each WEI organisation, and is not in the public domain. They feel that it is made clear in their privacy statement that the feedback was given in circumstances importing an obligation of confidence, that disclosure would be detrimental to Stonewall’s interests and that such disclosure would constitute an actionable breach of confidence.
Section 41 exemption [provided in confidence] under the FOIA provides that information is exempt if it was obtained from another person or organisation and disclosure would give rise to an actionable breach of confidence. Since this information was obtained by the Trust from Stonewall, the first test for engaging the exemption is met. For section 41(1)(b) to be met disclosure of the information must also constitute an actionable breach of confidence. It is clear from Stonewall’s view indicated above that they feel this information was communicated with the expectation it would not be disclosed in this way and that disclosure would constitute an actionable breach of confidence. The Trust therefore considers section 41 exemption engaged...

Acres of stuff on Trust website about Pride etc. Re LGBT+ history month, it links out to a charity called Schools OUT:
We founded ‘The Classroom’ website to draw together our free education resources for key stages 1- 5 (5 years old to 19 years old); to enable educators to embed LGBT+ inclusive lessons and history throughout the curriculum. We introduce the ‘whole school’ approach and the concepts of ‘Usualising’ and ‘Visibilising’.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 20/06/2025 20:03

@YellowRoom, that is unbelievable - both your work, and also the things that you uncovered. So much overreach - I just cannot see how there was no one who looked at any of these policies at any point and thought there was something wrong.

Also, “front hole” 🤮

Bannedontherun · 20/06/2025 20:45

Flipping eck

KnottyAuty · 20/06/2025 21:28

@YellowRoom thanks so much! That one is a cracker isn’t it?! Too much to take in, in one go! The bit about 16 & 17 year olds got my attention - isn’t this a work policy? How many 16 year olds would be employed in a typical trust these days?

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YellowRoom · 20/06/2025 21:34

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 20/06/2025 20:03

@YellowRoom, that is unbelievable - both your work, and also the things that you uncovered. So much overreach - I just cannot see how there was no one who looked at any of these policies at any point and thought there was something wrong.

Also, “front hole” 🤮

So weird - having crippling gender dysphoria worsened by having a baby but feeling a bit better about it all by calling your vagina a front hole. Reckon a bloke wrote that bit

My post was so long because I was just about to submit when I accidentally clicked off the form. Progressed through three-ish stages of grief before trying to retrieve the form and managing except the attachments had unattached. So I copied loads over in a panic.

YellowRoom · 20/06/2025 21:39

KnottyAuty · 20/06/2025 21:28

@YellowRoom thanks so much! That one is a cracker isn’t it?! Too much to take in, in one go! The bit about 16 & 17 year olds got my attention - isn’t this a work policy? How many 16 year olds would be employed in a typical trust these days?

Policy is for staff and patients. They've been fed some lines and regurgitated them? Seem in thrall to Stonewall - would probably have put that it's Trust policy to boil babies that look at NB people funny if they'd been instructed to do so.

Keeptoiletssafe · 20/06/2025 22:06

Don’t they know the front hole is the urethra entrance?

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 20/06/2025 22:12

Keeptoiletssafe · 20/06/2025 22:06

Don’t they know the front hole is the urethra entrance?

🤣🤦‍♀️

redmugbluemug · 21/06/2025 14:08

@KnottyAuty I’ve just submitted the University Hospital Southampton NHS Trust. I’ve included in the ‘Other comments / notes’ section information re. what I couldn’t find, and some other observations. I hope it's Ok.

I don't think it was too awful compared to some others (though I recognise I now have a high threshold for disappointment on this issue). No obvious Stonewall links etc., but the usual contradictions and fudging in an EIA.

I will also PM you about something related, but not directly to the above!

KnottyAuty · 21/06/2025 15:38

Keeptoiletssafe · 20/06/2025 22:06

Don’t they know the front hole is the urethra entrance?

Slightly scary that this is an NHS policy - hopefully written by no one medical the EDI department

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