Ban the Burka? Q to Kier Starmer today-is this a good idea or not?

[happydappy2]

I know dictating to women what they can or can't wear is not popular amongst feminists. But is stating that they cannot cover their face a bad thing? There are many situations where faces have to be visible for security, ie in a bank you cannot wear a motorcycle helmet. I know some people will say if certain women cannot wear a burka they will not be able to leave their home....but isn't it better that women can just live their lives in the same way as men do, ie faces uncovered? Interested to hear others views. Personally having lived in Saudi Arabia I respected their customs when in their country but feel the UK should also be able to say, in our country, women can show their faces.

@Worldgonecrazy
Those women who choose to wear hijab and burka are acting against women in countries where there is no such choice. It gives credence to the ‘it’s their choice’ brigade and continues the idea that women should be modest, and are the guardians and gatekeepers of men’s shame.

I don't know if anyone remembers World Hijab Day when non Muslim women wore hijabs to show solidarity with their Muslim 'sisters'.

Essentially mostly white women donning hijabs for the day. It started at a time following 9-11 when there was a lot of Islamophobia and ban the burkha type stuff in the media. But all these women prancing around in headscarves virtue signalling, without a care in the world for women in other countries (and this one) who are beaten (or worse) for not wearing one, made me cringe. More than cringe

Additionally, it was following 9-11 that the number of women wearing hijab (not niqab) rose. It was for many, a way of signalling they were proud to be Muslim in the face of so much hate. They weren't wearing one before but when governments started to try and ban them it was a way of protest. The trend has just continued.

I think that you missed my post earlier saying that I would support banning the balaclava. And several posters have said the same.

So I shouldn't wear one then? Even if it's comfortable and warm?
People who wear the Niqab choose to wear it at certain times. Why shouldn't they?

So completely divorced from religion in your view?

Which faiths wear them?

Sorry but how many men are routinely walking around everywhere and performing their work duties in balaclavas?

And there has actually been a call to ban them because, as I posted above, they are being used by many boys/men to conceal their identities while terrorising neighbourhoods and commiting crimes.
I saw lads in balaclavas in my city centre during the last heatwave.. I think they should definitely be banned.

What? You want to wear a balaclava at work or in a restaurant? Yes, I do think that's unreasonable and weird.
Unless you work outdoors in sub zero temps and are dining out in an ice bar,

And people are choosing to wear the niqab at certain times? Which times? The arguments here against banning them are that these women have to wear them at ALL times or they won't be able to leave the house and so on.

I'm not following you at all.

On one hand I balk at telling women what they can and can't wear and I would be very scared that it would mean they weren't allowed to leave the house at all.

But I believe that the basis of it is oppressive to women and part of an often misogynistic religion and culture due to extremists. (I am aware not all).

These garments have been forced upon women in some countries (Afghanistan for example) so it is ignorant on our part to wave our hand and say it's what they want. For a lot of these women they are likely being controlled by father's and husbands and if it gets banned, would it slowly die out? I'm not sure.

I also don't like the idea that other face coverings are banned (rightly so), but someone can cover their face for religious reasons and we have no idea who is under there and it is a good disguise for committing crimes and entering women's spaces.

I would not put it past the more extreme trans identifying males to begin using this as a big fuck you, after the SC ruling.

I don't have the answers and I would hate for any woman to feel uncomfortable due to being forced to wear or not wear something (so is a ban hypocrisy when considering that).

But there's also broader issues to consider too.

Very complicated topic.

It's reliant on the belief that the women who wear it don't want to do so.

I answered this before but it seems you're still asking the same questions.
Religious people argue that it's necessary. The religion itself does NOT.
It is indeed more cultural than something the actual religion mandates.

Don’t tolerate the intolerable. If you want to live in a society where it’s acceptable to publicly erase women, well there are 30+ Muslim countries in this world.

?
Yes they do. Usually young blokes on those banned electric bikes.

Banning the burka (in public places) is not telling women what to wear because the law would apply equally to men and women.

This is true. I noticed this, particularly amongst teen girls. Perhaps it’s part of tendon to identify into an oppressed minority, similar to goths etc when I was younger.

And I would argue that the majority of women who cover their face at all times are not doing it freely. If some women do as you say, choose to cover their face one day and show it the next, there's your proof it's not a religious requirement. So why should it be tolerated?

If a teacher doesn't have to wear a face covering for religious reasons but chooses to, then surely another teacher can wear a balaclava to teach her class right?
Completely normal and reasonable

I haven’t said the religion says it’s necessary, can you quote where that’s said?

The idea it has ‘nothing to do with religion’ as claimed clearly isn’t correct.

Absolutely Burkas should be banned. They already are in many countries including Muslim countries.

You're just playing with words now.
Ok I'll try again. It has nothing to do with the ACTUAL religion. Everything to do with people misunderstanding or deliberately and falsely claiming it is part of their religion.

Religion includes what we do now under its guise.

And since not all of it is good for women we should question that.

I leave my post as stands.

and some might say it is borderline racist to conflate a religion and some of it's followers.

Indeed.

And I am very down on pandering to cultural differences that masquerade as religion. Imagine all the bad behaviour you could sneak into society under that flag ? How about multiple marriages (for men, naturally) ?

It’s really not. A religion is a living thing including behaviours today. It’s not consigned to an ancient text.

ETA that connection you’ve drawn is out there. What a bizarre take.

Great point! I must admit I had not thought of that.

Thankyou for this post 💐

I have nothing further to add to this thread so I'll just finish off with this.

Supporting or arguing for women's rights to erase and exclude themselves from society and public life is not my idea of feminism and never will be.

If the result of banning the burkha would be women not being able to leave the house rather than the men in their lives supporting them in not wearing it in public, I think that says everything to the attitude of the men in those women's lives.

We shouldn't tolerate that in a free society either, should make sure very punitive measures in place for any men seeking to control female free movement. This is what used to set us apart from countries where those things exist.