Ban the Burka? Q to Kier Starmer today-is this a good idea or not?

[happydappy2]

I know dictating to women what they can or can't wear is not popular amongst feminists. But is stating that they cannot cover their face a bad thing? There are many situations where faces have to be visible for security, ie in a bank you cannot wear a motorcycle helmet. I know some people will say if certain women cannot wear a burka they will not be able to leave their home....but isn't it better that women can just live their lives in the same way as men do, ie faces uncovered? Interested to hear others views. Personally having lived in Saudi Arabia I respected their customs when in their country but feel the UK should also be able to say, in our country, women can show their faces.

Yes they should. They are not an expression of religion, they are a tool of oppression. Women are being beaten and murdered for taking them off so Western libfem handwringing about racism and cultural choices rings very, very hollow.

In my area they are very common. About half of the parents in my school wear them. At home time, children are all able to find their own mum even though I really struggle to know who is who. Those mums would not be able to bring their children to school were they forced to remove it. You don’t improve things for women by forcing them to do the opposite of what they’re being forced to do by way of their religious beliefs!

Are you suggesting burkas have nothing to do with religion?

Who tends to wear them?

tbh honest, I think that circumstances have overtaken us.
I think that in the past we naively thought, as a country, that immigrant groups would assimilate. Instead, I think we are seeing the growth of traditional Islam here, which I don't know what we can do about. There are definitely more women wearing the Niqab now, IMO.
Labour is desperate not to offend it's strongly-Muslim areas, so they won't do anything.
I think we should have imposed a ban on the niqab from the start, but it's too late.
We were on Bournemouth beach last week, and saw 2 families. The men in shorts and t shirts, the women covered in long flowing hijabs. I don't know if one can do anything about that, as it's a slightly different issue from the niqab, but it's still a symbol of a misogynistic faith.

I want to be able to wear a balaclava in winter. Would they be banned also?
I think it might be quite liberating not having to show your face. I mean, why should we have to all the time?

I also think NO-ONE wears a balaclava now. It's just whattaboutery.

Who would not allow those mums to take their kids to school and wouldn't it be better to address that problem rather than turn a blind eye to women being oppressed like that in the UK?

KJK has harrowing posts on her Twix of Saudi girls forced to wear full niqab and veils despite their will writing to her for help.

Every short-sighted « feminist » who thinks women wearing niqabs and hijabs is a personal choice that should be respected and not the product of sexism, fear and social pressure is a simpleton.

Hair covering is fine, dressing modestly is fine, everything above that is caused by men’s sadism and misogyny and is inherently oppressive.

Solutions can’t be legislated easily but all the bekind who don’t want to see the difference and think a burqa is no different than a tea dress, shame on your cowardice. Tens of thousand of women are forced to live like this in the UK, hidden, and the rest of women are too coward and blind to see the oppression pressed upon them, quite the opposite, they think it’s « multicultural » and « progressive »

I don’t want to live in a country that passes laws to tell women what to wear and how to dress

This isn't just women. It should be a simply rule, wear what you want until you are communicating with services/people, then remove your face covering so that there is trust. I would feel very uncomfortable if I had to interact with a man or woman with a balaclava on.

It’d be hard but I don’t think it’s too late yet.

Round here, and I suspect in most UK cities nowadays, it's men with covered faces in all weather conditions who are the problem, typically seen going around on illegal ebikes, not always ridden very considerately, and often (to the casual observer) of dubious immigration status. But let's go after the women, shall we?

Let's go after both IMO

Regardless of your own personal beliefs, expression of religion is protected in the UK. You have the right to believe in whatever religion you want and express that legally. Banning religious items of clothing goes against the Equality Act and Human Rights - it is outright discrimination.

People are right in saying that Islam doesn't mandate covering your face - it says women must be modest. Different Muslim women interpret that in different ways, hence the different face and head covering throughout the Muslim population.

I'm disgusted someone in Parliament even suggested banning the burqa.

I'm saying that the religion itself does mandate them. Nowhere in Islam (the Quran) does it state a woman must cover her face and even the hijab is debatable.

That religious leaders (and many Muslims themselves) say it is required is another matter. The fact that the majority of Muslim women do not cover their faces makes that pretty clear.

I understand that making something the law is different. But is it really true that no one is forced to wear it? Or is it cultural pressure/expectetions? Do children in families where the burka is normal actually have a choice not to wear it when they come of age? Do you think a baby born into a culture where there are no burkas would ever choose to wear one?

It's not just a case of oppressed women being coerced. There's also young women who wear it as a badge of religious identity (and don't give a damn about their sisters who don't have the choice).
At some primary schools the uniform for the girls includes a little hijab, rather like a headscarf. The schools say that, if that wasn't accommodated, parents wouldn't send girls to school.
So here we are.
But I think PP should shut up. I admire her stance on trans, and have always supported her, AND abhor the term 'dog whistle politics'
But this is dwp.

You can wear a balaclava if you want. But would you expect to wear it at all times? In the office? A restaurant? A bus? Do you think this would be reasonable?

The balaclava is very common where I live.
And it's almost exclusively worn by boys/young men to conceal their identities while they go around attacking people/ robbing shops/houses/undertaking other criminal or antisocial activities.
It's not a neutral item of clothing or a fashion accessory

Banning religious items of clothing goes against the Equality Act and Human Rights
Doesn't seem to stop other European countries doing it, does it?

Essentially this.

“I respect their customs when in their country but feel the UK should also be able to say, in our country, women should show their faces.”

I would not move to a country unless I was prepared to fully immerse myself in their culture, speak their language and follow their customs. I don’t agree with Halal or mosques (or churches) either to be honest.
I think it’s ridiculous when all you can see of someone is their eyes, it even looks uncomfortable and impractical.

The Abrahamic religions are oppressive and misogynistic, with Islam being the worst of the them. It saddens me that any religion is used as a viscous tool to keep women in their place. Those women who choose to wear hijab and burka are acting against women in countries where there is no such choice. It gives credence to the ‘it’s their choice’ brigade and continues the idea that women should be modest, and are the guardians and gatekeepers of men’s shame.

Women should be able to wear what they want, but let’s not pretend these decisions are made in a vacuum. Whether it’s the pressures to ‘be modest’ or the pressures to get Botox and parade around in hot pants, all stems from societal pressures of the male gaze.

Sorry if I’m being coherent but I’m feeling quite angry and sad about pressures on women’s external imagery right now.

As I said, there's little to be gained from noting that nowhere in the Qu'ran is there an order to wear anything. The directive (to men and women) is to be modest. How that is achieved is then a cultural, not religious process.

Same as nowhere in the Bible does it say you have to wear a cross. Again that is a cultural expression.

So anyone who tells you that their religion of Islam requires them to wear this that or the other isn't being precise.

Personally, I have a spidey sense borne of many years of seeing cultural mores dressed up as "religion", and it inevitably presages women being told what to do.

Some men are very big on telling women what they should wear. I notice they are not asking for men to be banned from wearing balaclavas

At my uni residential college there was a young woman who wore a burka. Not in the all female halls but everywhere outside. She was very vocal that it was her choice.

One day she was going to a family lunch with her aunt and uncle and was in a panic as she had torn her headpiece somehow and her other one was in the wash. She said her aunt wouldn’t let her in her house if she turned up without the burka right.

So not a choice.

I agree. I can cover my face with a scarf and hat in winter, a face mask, etc. So how can you ban a specific way of covering your face?

I do think a burka should be treated like any other face covering in the sense of having to remove it though. I don’t know how it works now, but if you’re somewhere where they’ve asked to see your face (for ID, security, whatever) then removing a burka should be included in that.

I’d take religion out of it, and say we allow people to cover their faces with other things, and we sometimes require those things to be removed. All of that applies to any and all face coverings.

Completely agree