Ban the Burka? Q to Kier Starmer today-is this a good idea or not?

[happydappy2]

I know dictating to women what they can or can't wear is not popular amongst feminists. But is stating that they cannot cover their face a bad thing? There are many situations where faces have to be visible for security, ie in a bank you cannot wear a motorcycle helmet. I know some people will say if certain women cannot wear a burka they will not be able to leave their home....but isn't it better that women can just live their lives in the same way as men do, ie faces uncovered? Interested to hear others views. Personally having lived in Saudi Arabia I respected their customs when in their country but feel the UK should also be able to say, in our country, women can show their faces.

Can you expand on that please.

Perhaps name the schools where it’s been an issue so posters can read up on the background, and also name the schools who’ve banned them when working with children.

Absolutely not. I live in an area where lots of women wear niqabs. My daughter goes to a school where the majority of children are Muslim and lots of the mums wear niqabs. I am not Muslim but because I am around women who wear niqabs every day, it feels normal to me. I know that for a lot of these women it is their choice to wear niqabs and I would not be happy to live in a society where they were forced not to. They can wear whatever they choose as long as (as someone else said) it is their choice.

Edit to add that I know niqabs aren’t what you’re discussing but I feel the same either way.

Just wondering how you are so sure it's their choice? Seems like some kind of hive mind.
I have worked in Tower Hamlets for 40 years in the community. This quasi religious costume is a very recent phenomenon in East London . I certainly did not see Muslim women wearing these clothes until relatively recently.
I agree it's entirely up to individual choice s to wear whatever people want to but it seems almost fetishised.
It just makes me so sad to see women so encumbered whilst men are strutting around in tee shirts and jeans right next to them .

Guess I'm just an old worn down woman and it's time to retire

I think that there are good reasons to think face covering for women shouldn't be normalized in this country. So we should feel free to say, for example in schools, that we are all free to show our faces in public and that is just fine. I think when people come here from other places, they should be told this, and also told that many people see face covering this way as as a problem. They can always choose not to come to the UK if they feel that is a line for them.

I think in general it's not a good idea to ban women from wearing these things if they choose. It's not the kind of thing that is really effective.

There are however places where we don't accept people who cover their faces, with masks, helmets, etc, for good reasons like security, and I think it's legitimate to apply that to religious coverings as well. I think if women need to uncover in these places it should be dealt with as sensitively as it can be while respecting the purpose of the rule. People who come here should also be told this is the rule in some cases, up front.

I think when discussing these topics, it should be clear if we're discussing burkha, niqab or hijab.

Because some posters will start talking about dictating what clothes women should wear, when the niqab really doesn't fall into that.

A hijab is no different to wearing a bandana or a hat. An Abaya is no different to wearing a long sleeved maxi dress.

A niqab is a full face covering (except the eyes) and is comparable to a balaclava which people would only reasonably wear in extreme cold weather (and would remove when in a public building or a restaurant)

Half of my family are Muslim and most of the women cover their hair. Niqab is seen as extreme.

Personally, I don't see expecting someone's face to be visible is, in any way the same as expecting someone to expose their body in more revealing clothes. It's the face, not the cleavage.

The argument that a woman needs to be completely hidden including her face doesn't sound like a religious or modesty argument to me. And a naked face isn't suddenly going to get men leering at you

I think faces should not be covered in certain environments. And that applies to balaclavas, bike helmets, medical masks.

I'm surprised TRAs aren't taking up the burka though, great way to enter women's spaces.

We have a childminder in our area who wears face cover. But I think she takes it off at home, when she is alone with kids. Only wears it outside. I cant see a massive issue. She is lovely and friendly otherwise.

The niqab is very rarely seen even where I live in a Middle Eastern country. Rare enough for even me to notice when I do see someone wearing one.

Aren’t women who wear the burka already been told what they can or cannot wear by religious leaders?

but feel the UK should also be able to say, in our country, women can show their faces.

But what about a tiny percentage of women wearing a burka means anyone thinks women can’t show their faces in the Uk?

The argument that a small minority of Muslim women want it banned in order to stop some women being forced to wear it doesn’t hold up imo. Unfortunately women from all cultures are trapped in controlling and abusive relationships, banning the burka will not change that.

That’s absolutely not the equivalent of it being the law though. No one is forced by UK law to wear a burka.
Women from many religions in the uk mark this by various religious wear or head coverings, ultimately it’s their choice whether to observe this or not though.

If it were really their choice their husbands, fathers and brothers would be wearing them too.

And other women in their community would be choosing not to wear them, with zero consequences.

Of course people should choose to wear what they like.

Yes 100% agree with a ban in all public spaces. You can do what you like in your own home, outside of it keep to simple displays of your faith such as a discrete cross in all public spaces. We need this for social and cultural integration which is why many other European countries are ahead of us in already doing it.

I think that is a good point @MissScarletInTheBallroom . What would the consequences be for the women if they chose to stop wearing it? Do you see groups of women (eg a family group) where some are wearing the burkha and some are not? And if not, why not - they can't all have the same exact interpretation of their faith can they?
I don't think banning this would work - and I'm suspicious of the motives of some who want to - but in no way would a society were increasing numbers of women wear burkas be one where women are truly liberated.

@MissScarletInTheBallroom, by your logic women also can’t choose to shave their public hair, get Botox or wear platform heels unless their fathers and brothers do it too.

I am no fan of niqabs (I think when they are worn in the context of this country they are profoundly isolating), but some of what passes for “logic” on this topic is laughable. Men and women having different dress standards is hardly unique to conservative Muslims.

I’m all for people wearing what they want as long as it’s decent. But I’m not convinced that all women who wear the niqab or burka are making a free choice.

There are many different types of colourful, traditional dress, a burka is not one of them.

It is a recent addition and I don't believe it is women who are begging to be able to wear them.

Smacks of control to me.

We should be able to see each other's faces.

You support women by not normalising oppression and treating women as chattel. Banning it isn't making anyone expose anyone anything, there is plenty of normal clothing that covers one's body that doesn't conceal one's identity, isn't designed with the intent to save men men having lustful thoughts on someone's chattel, and suggest that others are up for grabs if they expose skin. Nobody freely chooses to wear one.

Having recently practically reintroduced blasphemy law and removed free speech, as well as arresting the men protesting jihad on little girls (the southport murderer - who cirrectly wasnt welsh at all and had jihadi manuals), the ban would definitely help starmer improve his public image.

You’re not getting it. Of course women can have their face uncovered, no one in this thread is saying we force all women to cover their face or women SHOULD cover their face.

The argument against your position is that you shouldn’t force women to uncover their face. Key word is force.

Exactly this.

And little girls and boys looking at someone like that thinking that women's hair and bodies are something indecent and to be ashamed of. As well as impossible to have normal communication necessary for their development. Everything we fought against. We shouldn't allow oppressive ideologies or symbols.