Ban the Burka? Q to Kier Starmer today-is this a good idea or not?

[happydappy2]

I know dictating to women what they can or can't wear is not popular amongst feminists. But is stating that they cannot cover their face a bad thing? There are many situations where faces have to be visible for security, ie in a bank you cannot wear a motorcycle helmet. I know some people will say if certain women cannot wear a burka they will not be able to leave their home....but isn't it better that women can just live their lives in the same way as men do, ie faces uncovered? Interested to hear others views. Personally having lived in Saudi Arabia I respected their customs when in their country but feel the UK should also be able to say, in our country, women can show their faces.

I think you're the one lacking in logic here.

I never said anything about shaving pubic hair, getting Botox or wearing platform heels. I do think there is a problem that many women feel the need to do these things in order to conform to sexist beauty ideals. But there is still a choice. All those women know that they can choose to opt out of those things. They know that most women don't do them, and that the country and indeed the world is full of women who don't remove their body hair or get Botox or wear heels, and that all that will happen if they stop doing these things is that they will look a bit different to how they currently look. If their friends are a bunch of footballers and their wives who will ostracise them for opting out of that bullshit, they can just find some new friends. It's not as if their entire community will have something to say about it, or in the most extreme cases, senior members of their family will force them to put it all back on again and teach them a lesson if they refuse. I'm old enough to remember Shafilea Ahmed, who was suffocated by her parents with a plastic bag for, among other things, wearing jeans and T-shirts.

The other important point is that even if you choose to shave your pubes, get Botox and wear platform heels, it doesn't stop you from doing anything else. (You'll have to take the heels off when playing sport, but even Kim Kardashian isn't wearing them 24/7.) It doesn't stop you from going to the gym, or swimming, or lying on a beach and enjoying the feeling of the sun on your skin. A woman with no pubic hair and no ability to move her forehead and a women with deep wrinkles and a massive bush can lie next to each other on sun loungers or swim in adjacent lanes at the pool and both have exactly the same experience. There is nowhere in life that is inaccessible to you because you have chosen to get Botox.

So you think the the many religious hair coverings should be banned too?

Come to Tower Hamlets @Weepixie! But as @finespineline said it’s a relatively new phenomenon. Personally I think the niqab does increase segregation, I’ve noticed the mums who wear a hijab are far more integrated (in the community/school etc) than those who wear the niqab. It’s far easier to recognise, smile, speak if you can see a person’s face.

I think the feminist perspective is to look at why women are offered this choice in Islam, but not men. It’s not about saying women have no choice but to do this ( at least in the UK) but to ask, why is this a choice asked of women but not men?

Because the real reason women are asked to cover is not to bring their relationship closer to God, but to stop men committing adultery or fornification. Both these acts are punished by eternity in hell in Islam. And hell is a literal place of eternal torment in Islam.

I’ve heard Islamic clerics discussing women’s need to cover and you can sure bet their reasons were not to ‘bring women closer to God’. It’s was to protect men from hell.

Pretend all you like- this is a racist idea and an abhorrent one.

Perhaps they would be better off encouraging men to stay at home.

Kellie-Jay Keen has been publishing on X messages she has received from women who are forced to wear face coverings, and their fear of what would happen to them if they didn’t.

This! I’d also 100% ban balaclavas - having grown up in Belfast, the sight of a balaclava genuinely terrifies the life out of me.

All face coverings should be banned full stop.

But wearing a burka is a choice! You can’t logically argue against that when the vast majority of Muslim women do not wear it. The numbers if women wearing a full face covering are objectively tiny.
Are some of those women forced to wear it by their husband? Very possibly.
Do some women wear it due to family pressure? Again very possible.
Are some British women told not to get dolled up when they go out by their abusive partner? Absolutely.

You are trying to control other women just as much. Maybe they don’t want to feel the sun on their skin? These are all such ridiculous examples!

I was about 6 years old when we lived in Saudi. Back then women couldn’t drive! I was a child so the question of what job can a woman do with her face covered is very valid. Because if a woman can’t work, she is dependent on someone else to support her financially. Its such a double standard that face covering is only required of females….

I don't think a ban would help.

I'd actually like to see Muslim men who don't think it's necessary to wear one, speaking up a lot more about how they don't commit adultery despite the women around them having a face.

I don't think it is a choice in the communities where most if not all women do it. If women from those same communities aren't also choosing to show their skin and hair without repercussions, it's not a choice.

🤣 I'm guessing you'd feel differently in the real world and not the one where you're virtue signalling on mumsnet....

There's a huge difference between having a respectful discussion about women's clothing and choices within a patriarchal world, and banning particular items of clothing.
Balaclavas and motorcycles aren't allowed in banks but they're not banned.
I'd support a ban if it were a ban under coercive control rules and was a ban on anyone enforcing burqa wearing.
But's not right to ban women from wearing any item of clothing, even if in their own homes, even it's their own choice. That is a massive overreach by the state and a dangerous slope.

It already happened in many other European countries:
Austria, France, Belgium, Denmark, Bulgaria, the Netherlands (in public schools, hospitals and on public transport), Germany (partial bans in some states), Italy (in some localities), Spain (in some localities of Catalonia).

I despise Reform and I can see why people are concerned that this came from one of their MPs, but in principle I think it would be a good thing for the UK to follow what other countries have done.

To me it is bizarre that women have to completely cover their face. There is nothing in the islamic religion that asks for it anyway.

It is purely a cultural thing in some countries driven by men wanting to limit the rights of women. I would not call it a 'choice' if there is cultural pressure to conform and serious consequences for women who don't follow the rules.

I am an immigrant and I would completely expect the UK to be able to decide on what it thinks is acceptable and antisocial in its own environment.

Rubbish, @MissScarletInTheBallroom. You made a ridiculous comment and now you’re frantically trying to reframe it. At least have a grace to admit you expressed your idea badly and would like to try and make it a different way.

I expressed my opinion exactly the way I intended to and my opinion has not changed. I'm not trying to reframe anything. It's odd that you think that.

I would be very suspicious of anyone wanting to wear a full face covering on a street or in public life. I can understand that women are forced to wear burkas whilst their husbands go about in shorts and T-Shirts (misogyny in action), but if you think it's fine to wear a balaclava down a street, well...

Seriously cannot believe that on a Feminism forum someone is advocating wearing a full face covering in public (typically used to hide their identity).

In Belfast, wearing a full face balaclava is a very quick way of getting arrested or worse.

Except for that guy in Kneecap - the older one who doesn't want you to know he's a teacher in his thirties pretending to be a young chav rapper - but then the police are familiar with Kneecap and know they're a bunch of middle class theatre kids who are about as edgy as Rory Stewart.

Y'know, all I can add to this debate is noting how few men choose to wear face coverings either in support of, or as a protest against the passive role of women in this discussion.

Yes, I understand you might be suspicious, the point is I don't care. Your weird paranoia doesn't trump my freedom to wear what I like, protect myself from the cold, or indeed conceal my identity if I so wish.

I also can't believe that someone in this forum is licking the authoritarian boot and advocating giving policemen even more power to harass women on the street, but there you go, it takes all sorts.

Why not though? Face coverings have absolutely nothing to do with religion. Islam does not mandate them. Is there another religion that does? If so i'd question it, seeing as it's only women that are expected to be invisible.
Imagine I don't like people looking at my face for a variety of reasons. I'm not going to wear a niqab because I'm not of that culture.
Therefore would it be acceptable for me to wear a balaclava at all times?
I don't understand why you think arguing for women to be able to cover their faces is a good thing? Why are they hiding their faces in the first place?

I didn’t realise these countries had done so. I think Britain is tolerant and prefers equality and liberty. But that should be embraced by everyone.

Why not though? Face coverings have absolutely nothing to do with religion. Islam does not mandate them.

Don't waste your time learning about what other religions really say. You'll be accused of all sorts of nastiness.

Remember: "You do realise being a Christian isn't all about the bible ?"

Middle class theatre kids from West Belfast?? Lol