Ban the Burka? Q to Kier Starmer today-is this a good idea or not?

[happydappy2]

I know dictating to women what they can or can't wear is not popular amongst feminists. But is stating that they cannot cover their face a bad thing? There are many situations where faces have to be visible for security, ie in a bank you cannot wear a motorcycle helmet. I know some people will say if certain women cannot wear a burka they will not be able to leave their home....but isn't it better that women can just live their lives in the same way as men do, ie faces uncovered? Interested to hear others views. Personally having lived in Saudi Arabia I respected their customs when in their country but feel the UK should also be able to say, in our country, women can show their faces.

I think that if you put this thread in AIBU with an anonymous poll on it, you'd get many of the same comments you're getting here - but the poll would reflect a different majority opinion to the posts on the thread.

You'd get a lot of "look how not Islamophobic I am", "well ackshually, true feminism says that -" posts on the thread.

And then a majority saying "ban it" in the poll.

I think there was a case a couple years where men would wear a burka to disguise themselves and go shoplifting.

Some years ago a man was in a job centre wearing a hoodie, he was told to remove, but he said it was part of his Jedi religion, he received an apology for discrimination on religious grounds.

Also where do you see a lot of balaclavas? On TRAs harassing women.

I posted this after page one, and obviously we're in FWR, so things have taken a turn for more serious debate. Some really great responses as I'm backreading the thread.

I do think my point stands though. FWR is a bit of outlier. If you start a conversation with most women - even most women elsewhere on Mumsnet - the default response will be, well . . . what we saw on page one. Virtue signalling. But if you allow women to express their views in an anonymous poll, where they can't be piled on as intolerant bigots, I think you'd see a vast majority of them don't support the wearing of the burka. Even women who are fine with hijab consider that a step too far.

It's worth watching Simon Reeves in Scandinavia , the Denmark episode. It looks at some of these issues and how Denmark has chosen to address them.

Personally, I'm fine with the niqab but not with the hijab or the burqa. I don't think it has a place in a western society that aspires to equal treatment and opportunities of men and women. It's becoming more and more divisive and a visual representation of [though not necessarily a fair one] of people choosing to live in a different way with values which are not aligned to that of the country they have chosen to live in.

I take the argument that people should be allowed to observe their religious beliefs but the Islamic hijab does this, as does the Jewish mitpaḥat, the Sikh turban and the christian nun. The niqab and burka are extreme forms of this observance which I don't support.

How can you be fine with a niqab but not a hijab??

Pressure from family / religious community would likely prevent those women from leaving the home uncovered. Yes, I agree that it’s important to address the issue rather than turning a blind eye. We expose our pupils to many powerful women who happen to be Muslim, as an example of trying to show that there’s more than one way to be a good Muslim.

I can only speak for myself but people should have the freedom to wear whatever they like. That is the only starting point. And by that, for any lower energy thinkers in the room, "people = everybody".

Then we move onto the issue of society and it's regulation. If society - for whatever reason - decides that certain apparel needs to be regulated, maybe for the purposes of crime prevention (i.e. prevent face covering under certain conditions) then that regulation (like the freedom) also applies to everyone. Almost as if we lived in an equal society.

All else is froth, and there should be no exceptions for any religion. Again, almost as if we lived in an equal society.

Nothing above suggests it's a particularly feminist topic, if we are talking about everyone. Which, I presume we are.

On a more practical level, banning things will inevitable descend into nonsensical definitions. Starting with "what is a burka" ? If a christian male wore a burka then is it still a burka ? And then you remember that laws that rely on a per-case definition have never, ever, not once in history been used as a tool of oppression.

I don’t think anyone should be allowed to cover their face in public.

If you read to the end it's clarified, it was probably a mistype in first para

Fair enough. Tough luck on motorcyclists, but thems the breaks.

No I don't think it's a good idea at all, what benefit would it bring to anyone

The contrast in pictures of 1970s Iran and the current invisibility of women's faces breaks my heart. Women who freely chose to wear the niqab are in the same category as surrendered wives.
Whenever I see the niqab I think of Orwell.
“If you want to picture the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human [female] face - forever.”

I remember back then the same 'tolerant feminists' supporting FGM among immigrants. It's their culture, we mustn't judge, down with Western hegemony.

I am reluctant to have things which make it harder for Muslim women to participate in public life, but face covering was very rare when I was growing up in a big multi cultural city, but you will see it in most town and cities now. For me it represents an extreme end of Islam and it not compatible with the values of this country. I fear we are going to tolerance our way into the destruction of a liberal democracy with equal rights for women and gay people removed (and our Jewish citizens living in even more fear than they already do)

I think the Danish approach is interesting and there’s much to learn from it - we should not make it easy for people who don’t like our values to live here. There are many countries where their backwards beliefs are dominant.

Gah - got them the wrong way around. Perfectly happy with a headscarf, a head to toe swimsuit, but a face-covering I really struggle with.

For me it represents an extreme end of Islam

For me it has nothing to do with Islam, and everything to do with cultures that are from the "middle east" to use a shorthand to cover millennia of people and places.

I don't support a ban because the people who would suffer most would be the Muslim women living in oppressive, misogynistic households who would end up trapped at home, unable to participate in society.

However, I think there is a serious issue here about integration that needs to be addressed. If you come to the UK to live, you should accept that you will not be living the same life you lived somewhere else, and you should accept that there are cultural norms and acceptable behaviour that come with living here. So the norm here is you don't cover your face because it gets in the way of communication, and can prevent you doing certain jobs and participating in normal society. Just as if I went to live in a strict Muslim country, I would not expect to wander around in public in shorts and a vest top as this is not socially/culturally acceptable. I could do it in my own house though. Similarly, women in the UK who want to cover their faces can do this at home, at the mosque etc but in public they should expect to have their face uncovered. If they (or their families) are not OK with that they need to go and live in a Muslim country where that is fine. Just as I would not go and live in a country which didn't allow women freedom to wear shorts. Why would I want to live in a country where I was fundamentally opposed to their values?

So the problem as I see it is that the recent approach we have had is praising 'multi-culturalism' where everyone lives in separate communities when actually we should be pursuing an integration approach where everyone who lives in the UK shares similar fundamental values and participates fully in society. So there has to be an expectation of that on everyone who wants to live here - this means men as well, not putting all the burden on women.

I just wanted to add something following from @ghostofadog's post about values. I used to teach in FE. I taught a Muslim girl originally from Kenya. Her parents had moved to the UK precisely because of 'British values'. Specifically the opportunity for their daughter to achieve more, and be educated more, than they felt she would be able to in their part of Kenya. She wore a hijab. She was approached, in the UK, by British Muslim boys of Pakistani descent who 'scolded' her because some of her hair was showing. I suppose what this demonstrates, is that failing to uphold what we broadly think of as British values negatively impacts everyone, including those immigrants who have come to the UK for a better life.

I don't think your face should be covered. It's dehumanising and impractical.

If you want to wear a burka, go live in a Muslim country.

There are so many issues with burkas we barely know where to start.

And one thing it isn't, is good for women.

Nothing good come from female repression.

I went to school 30 years ago in Lancashire and believe me there wasn't any integration from Muslim kids (boys, because let's face it, they're in charge) then.

There certainly isn't now!

She was approached, in the UK, by British Muslim boys of Pakistani descent who 'scolded' her because some of her hair was showing.

Wasn't there a scene like that in "Not Without My Daughter" ?

"Every visible strand of hair is the blade of a sword in the heart of the prophet"

or somesuch similar ?

It's not up to Boris Johnson to say what a muslim women should wear on her face, it's up to her husband - Ricky Gervais

Not sure many Muslim women would be interested in wearing a discrete cross.

The fastest way to free women from the burka or niqab would be a law saying women are free to wear them, but only if every man in her family had to wear them as well.

Or, as it seems the reason for these garments is to prevent men being tempted, why not put men into chastity belts - why put the blame on the innocent instead of the guilty?

We are looking at this a*rse backwards as the saying goes.

I'd be interested to hear from Muslim women. Southall Black Sisters (I think) have done work on the double-bind that Muslim women face: abused by racists on the right while the left upholds oppressive practices in the name of 'tolerance'.
This is quite an interesting (if old) interview with Gina Khan who was involved with the discussion in Birmingham about a young child barred from wearing a headscarf at her Catholic school.
www.dissentmagazine.org/wp-content/files_mf/1389820333d12Interview.pdf