Ban the Burka? Q to Kier Starmer today-is this a good idea or not?

[happydappy2]

I know dictating to women what they can or can't wear is not popular amongst feminists. But is stating that they cannot cover their face a bad thing? There are many situations where faces have to be visible for security, ie in a bank you cannot wear a motorcycle helmet. I know some people will say if certain women cannot wear a burka they will not be able to leave their home....but isn't it better that women can just live their lives in the same way as men do, ie faces uncovered? Interested to hear others views. Personally having lived in Saudi Arabia I respected their customs when in their country but feel the UK should also be able to say, in our country, women can show their faces.

My family were immigrants.
They could have tried to hold me back, to guard me out of fear of xenophobia (which we did experience), they could have told me to only socialise with people from the same background as us.
They didn’t though. They didn’t even let me go to a school where there were lots of kids from our home country.
Because despite the xenophobia that certainly did exist in our host country, there were plenty of people who weren’t hostile, just like there are in the UK.
And also because my parents wanted me and my sibling to integrate and become part of the society we were now living in.

"but Catholics happily restrict access to contraception which is far more “oppressive” than many other religious practices."

This is not correct.
Catholic teaching is against artificial methods of birth control but the Rhythm Method can be used.

This is a spectacularly naive statement. Its the sort of statement someone who desperately wants to believe all cultures and sub cultures are equal, well perhaps the cultures of PoC are better than ours as Look! if a PoC is doing something that could be considered a bit off, its because of white racists! Just like pp commented earlier that women wear the niqab as a stand against racism! These comments are ironically quite racist themselves as they deny agency and autonomy to Muslims and PoC, instead believing they only act passively in reaction to what white people do.

The insular communities that keep their children separate do so because of reasons such as not wanting their children to come under the influence of our white British culture, because they don't want the mothers to come into contact with the husband when collecting the children from a play date at someone else's house, because they don't want their teenage girls to become promiscuous like those white girls. Teenage boys tend to have more freedom.

Believe it or not, its not just white people who have prejudiced stereotypes about different ethnicities. Some people from different ethnicities also hold prejudiced stereotypes about us!

Which is still a bit crap for women as it means that they can only have sex at times of the month when they are likely to feel least horny.

It also is difficult to use accurately for women with irregular periods.

Catholic teaching - as written by men - is against artificial methods of birth control but the Rhythm Method can be used.

And that's before you remember the Bible doesn't ban contraception. It needed a mans "interpretation" to make it appear.

See also: face coverings, etc.

Which is still a bit crap for women as it means that they can only have sex at times of the month when they are likely to feel least horny.

There are a lot of Christians who believe that women have to suffer because that's what God wants. I can't see them being especially interested in female pleasure.

Which vaguely reminds me of that Christian US politician who said as long as you didn't enjoy rape, you couldn't get pregnant.

It most definitely not about Islamophobia. The niqab predates Islam and is not required by any but the most extreme fundamentalists. Many Muslim countries have passed legislation to restrict the practice in response to the growth of these fundamentalists. They definitely do not promote the practice. I really don't see why agreeing with moderate progressive Muslims equates to Islamophobia. I don't see that criticising Imams and clerics who defend and encourage the practice is anything other than democracy in action.
I stand with the millions of women worldwide whose rights are currently being wiped out.

Of course Islam urges it's followers to obey the laws where they live, unless they actively require the faithful to do something forbidden,

Curiously, it is not forbidden to not wear a burka or other face covering.

It's amazing what you can learn when you ask nicely.

Religious indoctrination is why anyone does this at all.

ETA this is more a comment on pressure.

Yes, it’s time for you to retire. I have to cover my face and wear a hat because of sun induced dermatitis. It’s my head and face and I should not have to explain this to anyone

No one is forcing anyone to show a particular body part (unless you are referring to the face) which is stretching credulity too far. Please can we go to Saudi, for example, then and wear what we feel comfortable in? No, I thought not.

She wasn’t talking about skin conditions.
More and more women wearing more and more restrictive clothing for religious/cultural reasons, while men strut around in jeans and t-shirts - not everyone finds those changes positive, or even neutral.

Appease means to placate someone by giving in to their demands. We are giving in to the demands of another culture that decide to ignore our cultural values in our own country. That is appeasement. There is no race to the bottom: it is merely asking those who live in our country to abide by our values - just as we do when we go to their country.

Ivory towers are OK, until they're not.

I'm surprised that a feminist, which I imagine are most of those posting on this board are, upholds the double standard where men and other women who have bought into the concept of male superiority for whatever crazy reason, dictate how women dress.

I have just read some of the statements sent to Kelly Jay-Keen after her "free the face" comment at the last Let Women Speak. Scores of women from the middle east, particularly Saudi, saw her 7 second video and have written of their distress, the violence and suffering they have endured being forced to wear Niqabs etc. I think they find some comfort to know they are not forgotten by western women.

I'm with Madeleine Allbright on this. She said there is a special place in hell for women who don't support other women.

What percentage of women freely choose face coverings in this country and how 'free' is their free choice?

Yes of course there are. And those that shame unmarried mothers and take their children, that abuse children and simply move the abuser away to fresher parts when reported, who shun homosexuals and refuse women any chance of leading or preaching. There are countries where men can walk bare chested through the centre of town without comment but women must be careful not to show too much cleavage or leg, where women are paid less, and achieve less because they do more.

One wrong does not make a right and British women may wear what they like even if you personally don’t like it.

I can understand if yr in a really hot country, wanting to cover your skin to protect it from burning. But in the UK there is just no need to cover your face. It's clearly at odds with the rest of society and I would personally love to see the practice banned. Women are not 2nd class citizens, we are equal to men and should not have to dress differently to men.

This is a discussion about banning the burka, not about what Catholic couples do or don't do in their in their bedrooms.

Stop using the thread as am excuse to "bash" religions you may not like.

You are mistaken about this.

the Bible doesn't ban contraception

If you want to have a discussion about Catholicism I'd be happy to enlighten you in the "Religion" section.
Or maybe you'd you'd be better off on the Sex and Gender area?

We are discussion Banning the Burkha, not couples' sex lives.

There are a lot of Christians who believe that women have to suffer because that's what God wants

That's nonsense, I don't know what sort of "Christians" you have been taking to, but you need to keep more enlightened company.

Which vaguely reminds me of that Christian US politician who said as long as you didn't enjoy rape, you couldn't get pregnant.

What have the half-baked irrelevant diatribes of an American misogynist got to do with Banning the Burkha - it adds nothing to the discussion?

Yes this doesn’t resonate. And seems fanciful on a thread re the burka.

This is a good post oth.

@Lavender14 And as for concern about vitamin d - there's also the option of doing work with women who wear modest dress about the importance of supplements and diet.

With respect i think you are talking out of your hat and have never worked in areas with a large ethnic population

I worked for the NHS for 20 years.

In that time we were told we had to record the ethnicity of those who applied for treatment. Then we were told that we weren't treating enough "ethnic"clients.

Trying to get these prospective clients to engage with health services was like looking for hen's teeth. The women were often not allowed to access services and those that did had to bring a child with them to act as an "interpreter" which made a nonsense of Client Confidentiality. Some told us they had to consult with their husband or religious leader before taking up advice they were given.

Many didn't have any agency in health matters.

This is why I think that it should be mandatory for anyone moving to UK from abroad should have a working knowledge of English

Funnily enough most of the young women I work with do not have a working knowledge of English or did not at the start, and yes I do work with them around access to healthcare specifically womens health and work with young men around attitudes and behaviour. Cultural integration is also a big part of my work. Obviously there are significant challenges to that but it doesn't mean that its not work worth doing. And again most of those challenges come down to control and cultural attitudes to women which is what needs to be addressed and that needs to be done in partnership with those communities or you'll never ever have a good enough buy in and will just put vulnerable women and children at more risk. There are plenty of really good translation apps etc now which work well for most people so why you'd be using children instead of those is raising questions for me.

Having an expectation that anyone coming to the country has working English would again put the most vulnerable asylum seekers and those most in need at greater risk, in particular women who have been trafficked or sold or been refused education in their country of origin. I have no interest in supporting that.

So do you speak an "ethnic" language?

And have you ever worked in the NHS?

The NHS provides healthcare not translation services

Clients who have little working English brought children to use as translators because the department doesn't have the budget to provide interpreters in 20+ languages.

The NHS provides healthcare not translation services

My local hospital has a poster advising they can provide interpreters for about 10 languages.

However they can't provide on that speaks Doctor.