Ban the Burka? Q to Kier Starmer today-is this a good idea or not?

[happydappy2]

I know dictating to women what they can or can't wear is not popular amongst feminists. But is stating that they cannot cover their face a bad thing? There are many situations where faces have to be visible for security, ie in a bank you cannot wear a motorcycle helmet. I know some people will say if certain women cannot wear a burka they will not be able to leave their home....but isn't it better that women can just live their lives in the same way as men do, ie faces uncovered? Interested to hear others views. Personally having lived in Saudi Arabia I respected their customs when in their country but feel the UK should also be able to say, in our country, women can show their faces.

I agree with you.
On threads like this some people will always try to minimise the issue: “Oh, it’s just like a Covid/ski mask” or “What about motorcyclists/nuns”.
None of that is comparable with a face covering for religious/cultural reasons though.

“Diverse” can mean anything.
Are there many women in your area wearing full body veils or face coverings?
If so, and your daughter can still wear whatever she wants without being judged for showing skin, then that’s great.
It’s not always the case though.

Some religions police what women wear that’s the issue.

Yes, there are quite a lot of women locally who wear full face coverings. Niqab not burka. And quite a lot of women that don't. It isn't a problem.

This ten minute video from Konstantin Kisin talking about how Uzbekistan deals with similar issues is interesting.

It strikes me that a lot of the discussion on this thread has underneath it how far one values individualism and how far one wants a more consensus built, communal society. Personally I would be happy for all face coverings to be banned for the sake of a more integrated and accountable society. . Faces are a key part of our communication with one another and how we participate in society through being seen. (deaf and hard of hearing people particularly rely on lip reading to understand what someone is saying, but we all unconsciously lip read).

They are also a key part of accountability. When you are seen you are more accountable for how you behave to others in society. The people, young men in particular, who cover their faces to harass and intimidate those they disagree with understand this well. I would be very glad if these individuals were no longer able to do this. Perhaps they would be less keen to bully women if they did not get the thrill of cosplaying as macho men in masks and could be readily identified. .

Muslim women, like all people, should also be seen so that they have the same accountability for their public behaviour and words as anyone else. And yes, I have seen face covered Muslim women get the benefit of being anonymous whilst treating strangers badly. They are human after all so this will inevitably occur.

Wow so many assumptions here. I work with young women, many of whom wear your average clothing, some who dress very provocatively and some who dress in Muslim modest clothing including the burqa. All of them socialise together. There is zero 'slut shaming'. Do you know where I do hear that very, very regularly though - Christian churches. The very reason why I decided not to bring ds up in that environment even though i have a faith myself. Because I don't want him growing up with the message that girls are responsible for his behaviour. In fact I had a debate about this a while ago with a Christian friend about why women should choose to 'ditch the bikini' in order to be more 'loving' to our brothers in Christ. If you have a problem with a child simply seeing someone in a burqa but you have no issue with the sex education or lack thereof that exists in schools, or with the teaching of many Christian churches then your issue isn't the clothing.

Ipreacts that video is so true. Incompatible cultures sums up the problem very well.

@Lavender14
A woman in a burqa in a shop has a reason to be wearing it, a man in a ski mask in a shop does not.

Both have a reason.
She wants to for cultural, political, religious, other personal reasons. He wants to for some other personal reason. He's socially phobic, has facial scarring, or simply wants to.
Why is one more valid than the other ?

And how many times @Lavender14 . It's not about clothing. Since when is a face covering an item of clothing???

There’s a poetic description on the other burka thread which is sad. I can’t condone that erasure for women and girls.

It’s not so much about those wearing it mixing with girls and women who don’t or judging either way but more what a religion accepts or encourages for women only.

This surprises me as throughout my life I have spent a lot of time with Christians and attended many Christian events, courses and churches and never once have I come across this. Many young Christian women wear more 'revealing' clothes than I would and to Church too. They are, after all, looking to attract a husband. Not once have I heard a Christian, whether man or woman, discuss appropriate clothing. Maybe it is a thing in some churches or sects, but its far from mainstream.

Whereas we know that women's attire is a huge thing in Islam and I have certainly heard shaming from Muslim men and women both to Muslim women and even to non-Muslims.

To be fair I also wouldn't have an issue with someone wearing a face covering if they are in some way vulnerable or if its weather dependent. I wear a face covering at work in cold weather as i often work outside and i often forget about it when i nip into a shop. Never been an issue for me either. But equally I think it's important to be mindful of the fact that these rules and fears tend to be applied to certain demographics, and that IS harmful.

Eg. Young teenage men who are likely to wear hoods or scarves as face coverings. Not always due to anti community behaviour but often due to mental health and social anxiety. Or Muslim women. I've been in plenty of shops where people have been in wearing full motorcycle helmets etc and it's been a non issue. I find the issue tends to sit more with the wearer than the clothing or face covering itself because of the social perception of the person wearing it.

It's not something many churches will advertise and obviously some churches are more Liberal than others in the culture of the congregation but its been something I've come across in every church I've ever been to. And I'd describe them as pretty middle of the road churches. It's not necessarily taught outright, but it's definitely a mindset of many Christian women and its certainly the mindset I was raised within.

Clothing/ face covering/ garment I think is splitting hairs really. For me it's about a piece of material covering a womans body whether she chose for it to be there or not. The exact description of said material, to me is irrelevant and getting into semantics. It still boils down to women being allowed to show or not show parts of their bodies.

Still surprised! Like I say, never come across this and I have spent plenty of time in conservative evangelical churches, and have been attending Christian events and, had Christian friends all my adult life and I studied in a Divinity college that trained Ministers.

The only time I can think of this happening was visiting a Cathedral in Italy where women needed cover their shoulders and cleavage. But never outside that and I've seen plenty of young women's cleavage in evangelical churches. Probably husband seeking like I say.

So, if the pope wants to make human sacrifice part of the catholic liturgy, you ok with it?

Just saw this on X, posted by @AjaTheEmpress

The veil is not about modesty.
It is about exile, about cutting a woman off from the rhythm of life.
It is exclusion from sunlight, from wind, from the world
To be denied the sun on your face, the breeze in your hair,
to be robbed of your smile & identity is to be told:
You do not belong here.
If you can take from someone the most basic joys of being alive
skin warmed by daylight,
the brush of fresh air, the freedom to be seen
and convince her she doesn’t need them,
that she was never meant to feel them
then you have mastered a deeper cruelty.
This is not just control.
This is enslavement of the mind, the spirit.
The slow undoing of a person’s place in the world.
If you can teach someone they don’t need the sky, then you can make them grateful for their prison.

Very noble of you. A strength when it's reciprocated. When it's a one-way street you are seen by the rigid cultural enforcers as weak and a timid culture. I say again, it's appeasement. Apeasement is never a successful long-term strategy. Sometimes toleration is taken to a finite point where it becomes intoleration to one's one culture. As one of Mumsnet's very oldest posters I lived through the results of appeasement - it's not pleasant.

It has nothing to do with appeasement. It's about values.

I don't see how a race to the bottom is helpful for anyone.

Tolerance, open-mindedness and respect for different points of view are aspects of our culture that

Would be nice ?

I will admit to only having skim-read the thread but just wanted to add my own experiences of women wearing hijabs (and my own).

Some time ago I travelled in Iran which meant I had to wear a hijab in public - I didn't mind, after all it was only for a short period of time after which I could return to my normal freedoms, and it was entirely my choice to travel to a country where this was mandatory. It was usual to be able remove it when in female-only company/in private (e.g. a private home). I just thought I'd add that as there was reference above as to whether they were worn all all the time.

I did learn quite a bit of Iranian history while I was there, including the run-up to and period of the Islamic Revolution. In the decades before the revolution, Reza Shah wanted Iran to be more western and tried to enforce western-style dress. As part of this the hijab and chador (a wrap you hold from the inside) were banned. Our guide talked about women who didn't go outside their home for all the years the ban was in place, often because they didn't want to for religious reasons (although I'm sure there were some who were stopped by their families). Women who refused to unveil were beaten.

(And that sort of sentiment was not uncommon here in the UK until relatively recently - my old next door neighbour was born in the Edwardian era and just would never ever have gone out without a hat or headscarf, it was just unthinkable to her.)

There's an argument that the move against "traditional" beliefs in Iran which was - and remains - a very religious country, contributed to the rise of the Ayatollahs who promised religious freedom and...well, we know how that ended.

The tl;dr version of all that is bans are a bad idea, it takes away freedoms and hands potential political leverage to those that would misuse it. So I don't want to see a ban, women should be able to wear what they like including by covering their faces if that is their own personal choice in their religious belief. That choice should be completely free and I absolutely accept that, directly or indirectly, it often isn't. But I still don't want to see a ban because those women who don't have freedom of choice will probably be forced out of society completely, as the Iranian ban showed.

Can you say do you wish to keep the burka as an option?

I wasn’t sure in that last post re live and let live v doing as religions ask

I agree. Tolerance and open-mindedness are one thing, but what does not wanting “to impose our cultural expectations on others” even mean?
At the same time, there are people who move to a different country and are quite happy to impose their own cultural expectations on others, especially on their kids (mostly daughters).
I’ve met several young women whose parents had chosen to move to a Western country, yet weren’t allowing their daughters to fully participate in the society.

Does that apply to all cultural and religious practises?

Of course not. Just the ones we approve of.

(See: Jedi)