Ban the Burka? Q to Kier Starmer today-is this a good idea or not?

[happydappy2]

I know dictating to women what they can or can't wear is not popular amongst feminists. But is stating that they cannot cover their face a bad thing? There are many situations where faces have to be visible for security, ie in a bank you cannot wear a motorcycle helmet. I know some people will say if certain women cannot wear a burka they will not be able to leave their home....but isn't it better that women can just live their lives in the same way as men do, ie faces uncovered? Interested to hear others views. Personally having lived in Saudi Arabia I respected their customs when in their country but feel the UK should also be able to say, in our country, women can show their faces.

My views are upthread.

I still can’t get from your answer what you mean. I agree with some of your responses but some seem to go in the other direction. I am interested in the burka question though can you say on that whether you’d keep or not?

Full face covering with slits for eyes is a problem.

No. Obviously not.

I'm talking about people being free to make choices about how they live their own lives to the extent that this does not have a negative impact on others around them. So I do not think that men should be able to dictate to women what they should or shouldn't wear, regardless of what's culturally "normal" for them, but I do think women should be able to make their own choices about how they dress.

Some cultural and/or religious practices clearly aren't acceptable because they involve harm to others. FGM for example.

Then it’s not really we must be open minded and tolerant thing otherwise you’d accept all, but a what’s included as ok and what’s not.

You accept a burka where others see it as oppressive for women and bad for hard won equality.

For who?

I don't like it, but that doesn't mean I think it should be banned. I don't think the state should be dictating how women dress.

No, I think it's for women themselves to decide if it's oppressive.

I don't think the state should be dictating how women dress

Except they do in the repressive states that impose these dress codes. The first thing that occurs when women are released from these oppressions is that they tear off their burka, or niqab, and express their individuality of hair and clothes. Don't forget the women of Afghanistan or Iran or Saudi who die in order to have those freedoms.

And I think we should create and have a society that values equality and freedom for women.

It’s not really open mindedness and tolerance though to have a law for one cultural practise and not another. It’s still imposing a system. It’s just at a different place to others.

Lots of things can be used to oppress women. Was your point supposed to be “it’s only covering the face that’s an issue”? Because my point was basically that it isn’t about that at all, it’s about Islamophobia.

Freedom for women to dress in ways that you consider to be acceptable, you mean?

Well murder is already illegal and certainly not thou shalt not kill compatible but Catholics happily restrict access to contraception which is far more “oppressive” than many other religious practices.

This is very nuanced though... often parents who are first generation immigrants, particularly those who are not white, keep their children separate because they genuinely worry for their children's safety in the face of racism, or due to their own past trauma. I think again, we need to be very careful to strike a balance between allowing parents to parent in the way they see fit for their child (as we all do) and those who are using their parenting as a weapon against their children. We can't just assume that people don't have very genuine reasons for guarding their children. Equally - I wouldn't expect to go to any country and deny my Christian faith and my right to practice it, nor would I expect any Muslim to come to the UK and be denied their right to practice their faith provided they are not directly harming others. I say that understanding the harmful effect the burqa can have in some instances but I don't think it's enough to justify a complete ban. Especially when we know some women DO choose to wear it freely. There will always be religious stances I personally don't approve of, eg I'm 100% pro choice but I know many Christians are pro-life on religious grounds. I don't believe I get to pick and choose any more than they have the right- for me it's two sides of the same coin.

Given the men in that religion are freer than the women I see that as problematic yes. And I do value the freedoms women have gained here for sure.

You want laws for other cultural practises so you’re ready to have views on what’s acceptable.

Ultimately- to me, if we actually focus on the root of the issue and addressing that then there should inevitably be less pressure on women to conform so therefore there should be in turn less pressure on women to choose a burqa if they are being forced into it. Simply banning it does absolutely nothing to resolve that issue but it does hide away victims so we don't need to deal with them and we can pretend we fixed it.

Men are freer to wear what they like in the UK

it's very simple.

Remove all fairy stories from modern life.

If someone wants to cover their face and there is no law against it, let them crack on.

If society decides as a whole that it should be unacceptable to cover a face <insert conditions here> then that applies to everyone. Men. Women. Maybe children.

And that.

Is.

That.

However, if society decides against prohibiting face covering, but someone wishes to do so, they cannot be insulated from the implication of that decision. So (as a made up example) if you are giving evidence in a court, and your face is covered, don't expect me to be more critical of your testimony than if I saw your face. One persons choice doesn't trump the other.

I realise how incredibly tiresome it must be to keep on suggesting equality for all in all. I guess I wasn't bought up right.

I want laws that protect people from harm done by others while giving people optimal freedom to manage their own personal lives as they see fit. Freedom to the extent to which it doesn't encroach on the rights of others is a pretty common principle and one that underpins much of our law and ethics.

I want women to be free to wear what they want. I don't want the burka or niqab banned because of that. I would very happily support any legislation that made it a criminal offence to try and force or pressurise others to cover up.

Thanks. I get you now. On the remove fairy stories that’s a biggie and might be harder than the burka issue.

I wonder what would happen if we didn’t pass down religion to the next generation in any way.

Still have ethics and laws of course but there’s a reason it endures.

Of course there are some cultures that tolerate so called "honor" killings.

Thanks. I get you now. On the remove fairy stories that’s a biggie and might be harder than the burka issue.

Not really. It's the most simple of all. Religion has no part in secular society. And that is totally and utterly equal. Maybe recast it as "No religion has any part in secular society".

However, as I have stated in another context, when you are used to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

The only way it isn't simple, is if you want to try and be clever and somehow protect one religion (e.g. Christianity) over another (e.g. Islam). Then it might be a "biggie".

Good point, but I think you neglect the importance of secularism.

People fought for centuries to get freedom from the Catholic Church, to put religion at his right place to allow for a true multi-faith society where everyone is equal = religion should be a private, personal, spiritual matter, not a rituals-based social performance nor a political influence, whatever is written in the sacred texts needs to be revisited at the light of science, modernity law and civil authority.

That’s how we got rid of the damages of religion and achieved true progress. And we forgot about it, and we let it happen again because we have become so naive.

So this is more about Christianity in the U.K. for you?

It's not allowed for frontline Health Care Staff in the NHS because it interferes with communication.

Not particularly. I mean Christianity is the official religion of the UK, so can't help but loom large. But generally I have an antipathy towards any explanation of the universe that requires other people to fall into line.

I you believe that the universe was sneezed out of the nose of a great creator, and as a result your special book tells you to fear anything that looks like a handkerchief, then fine. Knock yourself out. Write about it, talk about it, stand on box and shout about it. If you can gather some like minded people and form a community and share the washing up, great. Crack on.

However, if your following your sneezy deity requires that I have to avoid using a handkerchief myself because it might anger them, then you can fuck right off.

I probably wouldn't have had a long life 500 years ago. Although worrying about winter cold wouldn't be an issue.